Assisted Suicide?

[Teffo]

Just wondering what everyones take was on this? *and how you feel abot kavorkian?

[Peter]

why would you want to help someone go to hell? *:think:

[Teffo]

that's how i feel about it...but not only would you be helping someone go to hell...but ud be guaranting urself a free pass to it also

[caz]

hahha amen to that teffo, u are guranteed 100 percent lol, its unethical i think and really totally unnecessary and its hard and sad to see ppl actually do help others *:no no:

[sammiedebull]

You cant say it better than Peter said it!

[Randel]

I don't know how I would feel in that kind of situation. If someone is in pain all the time, and there is no way to help them, then I think they should have a right to end their lives.

From a religious standpoint, you are never allowed to hurt yourself. But not all people all religious, so they might not be worried about going to hell. But when I think about it, why would anyone need assistance in a suicide? They can easily do it themselves with things like a drug overdose. So its a very touchy topic. I think you should be allowed to kill yourself, but I don't agree with assisted suicide.

[Anonymous]

this lady i used to work for at my old job

killed her self

she took something and didnt wake up the next day

well i heard she killed her self..some say she just died in her sleep, she wasnt ill or anything she was a very healthy women, and very strong & brave.

[FirePup]

If i was to kill myself, i would do it by jumping off a plane while having sex with the hottest female on the planet.

I'm not saying it's possible, i'm just saying...

[Randel]

I want to die while jumping off a plane *while having sex with the hottest female on the planet.

I'm not saying it's possible, i'm just saying...

its possible. a lot of people die while jumping out of a plane because they start tumbling in the air and lose their sense of balance. Then they pass out and die. :(

[Rita]

I don't agree with this. Kevorkian has BS'd hiw way out of everything and maniuplated the situation for others. You shouldn't help anyone take their life, especially the way they did to Terri Schiver

[Randel]

I don't agree with this. Kevorkian has BS'd hiw way out of everything and maniuplated the situation for others. You shouldn't help anyone take their life, especially the way they did to Terri Schiver


they did not help terry shaivo take her life. She was already brain dead. They did not assist her in suicide they just did not keep her alive. If I see an ant laying on the ground with its leg chopped off and I choose not to give it food, I am not assisting in its suicide. Im just choosing to ignore it and let it die. Same thing that happened to terry shaivo.

you cant assist suicide when the person or thing is not commiting suicide in the first place.

[david]

although assisted suicide, or euthenasia, is a touchy subject, I feel that if there is a degree to which a person is in pain and there is no medical or humanly possible way for the treatment of their ailment and they do not wish to suffer for the rest of their lives, then I believe that it is their decision. I am sure that they would much rather die with minimal pain than to live years on end with pain while they sleep, when they wake up, when they eath, when they live.

Oh and about Terri Shiavo, her death was not through assisted suicide but rather through letting her starve to death. Assisted suicide is done through medicinal means (as far as I know). What they did to Terri was horrible, and I thik in her case assisted suicide would have been far more desirable and respectable.

[Randel]

its good that they finally let her die, but I dont see why they starved her to death when she could of been injected with something and died much more peacefully.

[xFadedxxAwayx]

I think people can take away thier own life and go to hell if they want, but you shouldn't help. Kavorkian was some quack all right. I think he was smoking a lil something...

[Teffo]

terri was already gone....she should have gone in peace and her parents were wrong for what they ddi to her for all those years....that isnt assisted suicide...

assisted suicide is giving someone the drugs to die....or needle to inject or even a gun....

[Samuel]

Jesus christ people. *Read a fvcking book. *:roll:


As far as A LOT of people are concerned, hell is a figment of your imagination. *You don't justify laws based on fairytales you perceive as truth.

Let's look at the facts for once. *Life carries intrinsic value. *Sacred, intrinsic value (based on the complexity inherent in human life). *Even an atheist will admit to this. *That value diminishes as the person is better off dead, than alive. *If a person is suffering from a pernicious existence (pain?), then it's better to just let them go. *End of fvcking story.

[sammiedebull]

do you beleive in god and his words?

if you do, than you should follow and respect by them and do your best to live by them.

this s not some liberal crap you believe in i hope, people are in pain, god will take them when the time is right! man is not god, he does not dictate when other man should go in a democratic society.

[Samuel]

do you beleive in god and his words?

if you do, than you should follow and respect by them and do your best to live by them.

this s not some liberal crap you believe in i hope, people are in pain, god will take them when the time is right! man is not god, he does not dictate when other man should go in a democratic society.

If you're going to bother responding and insulting my post, at least do so in an intelligent manner. *I'd appreciate if i could understand "your crap" for once.

[david]

umm... sorry bad i would have to agree with samd... its not that we dont "listen to god's word and respect it", dont you remember your parents telling you god blesses you with the ability to make decisions for yourself? the ability to make choices in life? well guess what, you cant sit there and say "god will know when to take the person away when the time is right" when the person is sitting there suffering, they may have a terrible time breathing, may wheeze for years on end, may have unending pain in their body, and you think "god" is going to sit there and say, oooh well its not time for them to go? no, sorry, but people are given the ability to consciously make decisions for themselves, and if they are in such great pain that they feel that it would be best to die, then why take that choice away from them? then the next question is, who are you to say that they cannot go if they feel that is the best thing for them? sorry i am not attacking anybody in particular, i am just a little upset that people think god hasnt given us the intelligence to make intelligent decisions.

[Samuel]

umm... sorry bad i would have to agree with samd... its not that we dont "listen to god's word and respect it", dont you remember your parents telling you god blesses you with the ability to make decisions for yourself? the ability to make choices in life? well guess what, you cant sit there and say "god will know when to take the person away when the time is right" when the person is sitting there suffering, they may have a terrible time breathing, may wheeze for years on end, may have unending pain in their body, and you think "god" is going to sit there and say, oooh well its not time for them to go? no, sorry, but people are given the ability to consciously make decisions for themselves, and if they are in such great pain that they feel that it would be best to die, then why take that choice away from them? then the next question is, who are you to say that they cannot go if they feel that is the best thing for them? sorry i am not attacking anybody in particular, i am just a little upset that people think god hasnt given us the intelligence to make intelligent decisions.


why are you sorry that you have to agree with me? * :|

[Samuel]

hmm do we wait for God to take Osama bin Laden off the face of this planet? *I hope God acts a bit quicker... or has God taken an extended nap? *Shit. *Contradictions suck.

[Randel]

umm... sorry bad i would have to agree with samd... its not that we dont "listen to god's word and respect it", dont you remember your parents telling you god blesses you with the ability to make decisions for yourself? the ability to make choices in life? well guess what, you cant sit there and say "god will know when to take the person away when the time is right" when the person is sitting there suffering, they may have a terrible time breathing, may wheeze for years on end, may have unending pain in their body, and you think "god" is going to sit there and say, oooh well its not time for them to go? no, sorry, but people are given the ability to consciously make decisions for themselves, and if they are in such great pain that they feel that it would be best to die, then why take that choice away from them? then the next question is, who are you to say that they cannot go if they feel that is the best thing for them? sorry i am not attacking anybody in particular, i am just a little upset that people think god hasnt given us the intelligence to make intelligent decisions.


Your statements contradict eachother. God gave us the ability to make choices. That is true. But in the bible it also states that we cannot do harm to our bodies. Dieing may be whats best for us, but it is still against God's laws. If you are weezing, coughing up blood, and you have not died yet, than its that simple GOD DOES NOT THINK IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO GO.

[Teffo]

umm... sorry bad i would have to agree with samd... its not that we dont "listen to god's word and respect it", dont you remember your parents telling you god blesses you with the ability to make decisions for yourself? the ability to make choices in life? well guess what, you cant sit there and say "god will know when to take the person away when the time is right" when the person is sitting there suffering, they may have a terrible time breathing, may wheeze for years on end, may have unending pain in their body, and you think "god" is going to sit there and say, oooh well its not time for them to go? no, sorry, but people are given the ability to consciously make decisions for themselves, and if they are in such great pain that they feel that it would be best to die, then why take that choice away from them? then the next question is, who are you to say that they cannot go if they feel that is the best thing for them? sorry i am not attacking anybody in particular, i am just a little upset that people think god hasnt given us the intelligence to make intelligent decisions.


Your statements contradict eachother. God gave us the ability to make choices. That is true. But in the bible it also states that we cannot do harm to our bodies. Dieing may be whats best for us, but it is still against God's laws. If you are weezing, coughing up blood, and you have not died yet, than its that simple GOD DOES NOT THINK IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO GO.


are you talking about when Jesus said that your body is a temple?

[Randel]

umm... sorry bad i would have to agree with samd... its not that we dont "listen to god's word and respect it", dont you remember your parents telling you god blesses you with the ability to make decisions for yourself? the ability to make choices in life? well guess what, you cant sit there and say "god will know when to take the person away when the time is right" when the person is sitting there suffering, they may have a terrible time breathing, may wheeze for years on end, may have unending pain in their body, and you think "god" is going to sit there and say, oooh well its not time for them to go? no, sorry, but people are given the ability to consciously make decisions for themselves, and if they are in such great pain that they feel that it would be best to die, then why take that choice away from them? then the next question is, who are you to say that they cannot go if they feel that is the best thing for them? sorry i am not attacking anybody in particular, i am just a little upset that people think god hasnt given us the intelligence to make intelligent decisions.




Your statements contradict eachother. God gave us the ability to make choices. That is true. But in the bible it also states that we cannot do harm to our bodies. Dieing may be whats best for us, but it is still against God's laws. If you are weezing, coughing up blood, and you have not died yet, than its that simple GOD DOES NOT THINK IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO GO.


are you talking about when Jesus said that your body is a temple?



no. I cannot remember that part.

[renee]

If i was to kill myself, i would do it by jumping off a plane while having sex with the hottest female on the planet.

I'm not saying it's possible, i'm just saying...


I'd never have sex with you while jumping off a plane so, my friend, it's not gonna happen.

[renee]

People have a right to eliminate their own pain. Let God be the judge of their actions.

[Rita]

I'm sorry but no amount of pain can ever justify anyone wanting to discontinue their life because they don't feel like they should go on. Did anyone forget that Jesus sacrificed his life for each and every one of us. He went through the worst amount of pain & suffering than anyone of us would ever imagine. What makes people feel like they can't go on and shouldn't go on just because they feel some sort of pain, have an uncurable disease, etc. It is our responsibility to make our life valuable and live each moment the best we can.

[Samuel]

I'm sorry but no amount of pain can ever justify anyone wanting to discontinue their life because they don't feel like they should go on. Did anyone forget that Jesus sacrificed his life for each and every one of us. He went through the worst amount of pain & suffering than anyone of us would ever imagine. What makes people feel like they can't go on and shouldn't go on just because they feel some sort of pain, have an uncurable disease, etc. It is our responsibility to make our life valuable and live each moment the best we can.


yea, i forgot that everyone realized that Christianity is truth, and accepted christ into their life last night. *Thank you.


Btw, even if they did, it would still be blatantly ignorant to approach the subject with your interpretation.

[Randel]

I'm sorry but no amount of pain can ever justify anyone wanting to discontinue their life because they don't feel like they should go on. Did anyone forget that Jesus sacrificed his life for each and every one of us. He went through the worst amount of pain & suffering than anyone of us would ever imagine. What makes people feel like they can't go on and shouldn't go on just because they feel some sort of pain, have an uncurable disease, etc. It is our responsibility to make our life valuable and live each moment the best we can.

easier said then done. Ok Rita imagine this. You are pregnant. You are giving birth to your baby. It is the worse pain of your life. The baby is born. But you still feel that pain forever. Would you not want to kill yourself???


Dont lie to me. :twisted:

[david]

umm... sorry bad i would have to agree with samd... its not that we dont "listen to god's word and respect it", dont you remember your parents telling you god blesses you with the ability to make decisions for yourself? the ability to make choices in life? well guess what, you cant sit there and say "god will know when to take the person away when the time is right" when the person is sitting there suffering, they may have a terrible time breathing, may wheeze for years on end, may have unending pain in their body, and you think "god" is going to sit there and say, oooh well its not time for them to go? no, sorry, but people are given the ability to consciously make decisions for themselves, and if they are in such great pain that they feel that it would be best to die, then why take that choice away from them? then the next question is, who are you to say that they cannot go if they feel that is the best thing for them? sorry i am not attacking anybody in particular, i am just a little upset that people think god hasnt given us the intelligence to make intelligent decisions.


why are you sorry that you have to agree with me? * :|

hehe, let me rephrase that. I am NOT sorry I agree with you :) I agree with you completely.

umm... sorry bad i would have to agree with samd... its not that we dont "listen to god's word and respect it", dont you remember your parents telling you god blesses you with the ability to make decisions for yourself? the ability to make choices in life? well guess what, you cant sit there and say "god will know when to take the person away when the time is right" when the person is sitting there suffering, they may have a terrible time breathing, may wheeze for years on end, may have unending pain in their body, and you think "god" is going to sit there and say, oooh well its not time for them to go? no, sorry, but people are given the ability to consciously make decisions for themselves, and if they are in such great pain that they feel that it would be best to die, then why take that choice away from them? then the next question is, who are you to say that they cannot go if they feel that is the best thing for them? sorry i am not attacking anybody in particular, i am just a little upset that people think god hasnt given us the intelligence to make intelligent decisions.


Your statements contradict eachother. God gave us the ability to make choices. That is true. But in the bible it also states that we cannot do harm to our bodies. Dieing may be whats best for us, but it is still against God's laws. If you are weezing, coughing up blood, and you have not died yet, than its that simple GOD DOES NOT THINK IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO GO.

why do my statements contradict? I never said that I believed everything in the Bible, because frankly I dont, and it is my right to believe what I feel makes who I am a better person. Just because you believe everything that is in the bible doesnt make you a better christian than me. I believe that my faith is what I choose to believe, be it bits and pieces from buddhism, zen, whatever I want. Yes I believe in Jesus Christ, I believe he died for our sins, but I dont believe everything the bible has to say word for word. What ever I believe, as long as I am a good human being, I am respectful to others, and I give everyone the chance to speak their mind and I respect how they feel, is the right belief for me. Who is anyone to say that they know god better than I do?

[Rita]

I'm sorry but no amount of pain can ever justify anyone wanting to discontinue their life because they don't feel like they should go on. Did anyone forget that Jesus sacrificed his life for each and every one of us. He went through the worst amount of pain & suffering than anyone of us would ever imagine. What makes people feel like they can't go on and shouldn't go on just because they feel some sort of pain, have an uncurable disease, etc. It is our responsibility to make our life valuable and live each moment the best we can.

easier said then done. Ok Rita imagine this. You are pregnant. You are giving birth to your baby. It is the worse pain of your life. The baby is born. But you still feel that pain forever. Would you not want to kill yourself???


Dont lie to me. :twisted:

I don't know what it's like to have a child so you are asking the wrong person. Second, I would just get doses of epidural on my back or get high all the time. LOL

BTW, I have a very high tolerance for pain. I don't complain when my back hurts from a previous injury that will never be able to get fixed. I have very bad cramps every month and I don't really take pain killers 4 that anymore. And I just got all my damn wisdom teeth taken out today and I was given some Vicaden & Motrin 800 but haven't taken them yet. So, to answer your question, I think I's get through it. ;)

[Randel]

umm... sorry bad i would have to agree with samd... its not that we dont "listen to god's word and respect it", dont you remember your parents telling you god blesses you with the ability to make decisions for yourself? the ability to make choices in life? well guess what, you cant sit there and say "god will know when to take the person away when the time is right" when the person is sitting there suffering, they may have a terrible time breathing, may wheeze for years on end, may have unending pain in their body, and you think "god" is going to sit there and say, oooh well its not time for them to go? no, sorry, but people are given the ability to consciously make decisions for themselves, and if they are in such great pain that they feel that it would be best to die, then why take that choice away from them? then the next question is, who are you to say that they cannot go if they feel that is the best thing for them? sorry i am not attacking anybody in particular, i am just a little upset that people think god hasnt given us the intelligence to make intelligent decisions.


Your statements contradict eachother. God gave us the ability to make choices. That is true. But in the bible it also states that we cannot do harm to our bodies. Dieing may be whats best for us, but it is still against God's laws. If you are weezing, coughing up blood, and you have not died yet, than its that simple GOD DOES NOT THINK IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO GO.

why do my statements contradict? I never said that I believed everything in the Bible, because frankly I dont, and it is my right to believe what I feel makes who I am a better person. Just because you believe everything that is in the bible doesnt make you a better christian than me. I believe that my faith is what I choose to believe, be it bits and pieces from buddhism, zen, whatever I want. Yes I believe in Jesus Christ, I believe he died for our sins, but I dont believe everything the bible has to say word for word. What ever I believe, as long as I am a good human being, I am respectful to others, and I give everyone the chance to speak their mind and I respect how they feel, then who is anyone to say that they know god better than I do?


Who said any of those things??? Its weird how you are defensive when noone is attacking your beliefs. But I believe you can not pick out what you want to believe from the bible and what you dont. I believe you have to take *it all or none. ex. You can't say I dont believe the 10 commandments ever happened but I do believe Jesus died on the cross for me. You have to believe it all or none of it.

[david]

well guess what? no one is going to tell me how I am supposed to live my faith. No one. There is no rule that says I have to believe everything. People who believe everything the bible says, WORD for WORD, are known as Fundamentalists. Are you a fundamentalist? :think:

[Randel]

well guess what? no one is going to tell me how I am supposed to live my faith. No one. There is no rule that says I have to believe everything. People who believe everything the bible says, WORD for WORD, are known as Fundamentalists. Are you a fundamentalist? :think:

i guess so.

[Peter]

as Rita was saying where meant to suffer in some way in life as a test from God, most of us cant understand his motives, so all we can do is live the best we can with what God has given us and have faith...

[Peter]

Jesus christ people. *Read a fvcking book. *:roll:


As far as A LOT of people are concerned , hell is a figment of your imagination. *You don't justify laws based on fairytales you perceive as truth.

Let's look at the facts for once. *Life carries intrinsic value. *Sacred, intrinsic value (based on the complexity inherent in human life). *Even an atheist will admit to this. *That value diminishes as the person is better off dead, than alive. *If a person is suffering from a pernicious existence (pain?), then it's better to just let them go. *End of fvcking story.

Samd, we all know u like to take a political stand point on topics and i respect that but u should also remember that your discussing a topic with people of faith and you should respect what they say and believe and not be so dismissive and insulting to them, there are many differant things people chose to believe and there are many differant ways they chose to perceive them...Think what u want, say what u want, *but let others do the same with out persecution.

[Samuel]

Jesus christ people. *Read a fvcking book. *:roll:


As far as A LOT of people are concerned , hell is a figment of your imagination. *You don't justify laws based on fairytales you perceive as truth.

Let's look at the facts for once. *Life carries intrinsic value. *Sacred, intrinsic value (based on the complexity inherent in human life). *Even an atheist will admit to this. *That value diminishes as the person is better off dead, than alive. *If a person is suffering from a pernicious existence (pain?), then it's better to just let them go. *End of fvcking story.

Samd, we all know u like to take a political stand point on topics and i respect that but u should also remember that your discussing a topic with people of faith and you should respect what they say and believe and not be so dismissive and insulting to them, there are many differant things people chose to believe and there are many differant ways they chose to perceive them...Think what u want, say what u want, *but let others do the same with out persecution.

If you're going to assert that one will be "damned" for eternity when seeking relief for something you otherwise wouldn't begin to understand unless you were in his shoes, your reasoning better be more convincing than something contrived out of Chapter 4 of "Lord of the Rings." *All i ask for are universal principles. *Something that makes sense outside the confines of "blind faith." *The bible hasn't proven to be universal, consistent, or geniuine in its origins. *Thus your attempt at presenting an "objective" opinion meanwhile referencing to the bible is laughable at best. *You're just repeating rhetoric you heard from your parents. *If i wanted to hear a parrot, i'd visit the zoo.

[Samuel]

as Rita was saying [strike:ed0deec8e2]where[/strike:ed0deec8e2] we're meant to suffer in some way in life as a [strike:ed0deec8e2]test from God[/strike:ed0deec8e2] consequence to our simplicity, [strike:ed0deec8e2]most[/strike:ed0deec8e2] NONE of us [strike:ed0deec8e2]cant[/strike:ed0deec8e2] can understand [strike:ed0deec8e2]his [/strike:ed0deec8e2] our own motives because we are irrational, so all we can do is live the best we can with what God [strike:ed0deec8e2]has[/strike:ed0deec8e2] hasn't given us and have [strike:ed0deec8e2]faith[/strike:ed0deec8e2] independent thought...


I fixed a few of your minor mistakes.

[renee]

I'm sorry but no amount of pain can ever justify anyone wanting to discontinue their life because they don't feel like they should go on. .
Have you ever worked with anyone with chronic pain for which there was no hope? Try spending a day with people who has Huntington's Disease or Multiple Sclerosis.




Did anyone forget that Jesus sacrificed his life for each and every one of us. He went through the worst amount of pain & suffering than anyone of us would ever imagine. .

Isn't Jesus supposed to be God? 1) why should we be expected to be equal to God? Isn't that Blasphemy? 2) If we could do what Jesus did, there would have been no reason for the Father to send Him.

[sammiedebull]

samd can really pass for an athiest!

[sammiedebull]

I think people like renee and samd dont think about the afterlife, they do not have god close to them. You can see these responces, they are going totatly against the basic concepts of religion in most of these posts. They always bring in political views such as "we are free", "it's a free country", "I'm a liberal". The sad part about it is that some of these posts do not always refer to your political view, They refer to your faith and deep belief in what ever religion you follow.

Again, Peter said it right, you always reference to politics. I think that you always look at the law of the land before you look at the moral view of things.

Prime Example : Legally people can have abortions. Is it morally right? No! so not everything is politics!!!

[Anonymous]

i'd discuss some issues about this but i dont have time to read everyones opinions...

[renee]

I think people like renee and samd dont think about the afterlife, they do not have god close to them. You can see these responces, they are going totatly against the basic concepts of religion in most of these posts. They always bring in political views such as "we are free", "it's a free country", "I'm a liberal". The sad part about it is that some of these posts do not always refer to your political view, They refer to your faith and deep belief in what ever religion you follow.

Again, Peter said it right, you always reference to politics. I think that you always look at the law of the land before you look at the moral view of things.

Prime Example : Legally people can have abortions. Is it morally right? No! so not everything is politics!!!

So religions allow euthanasia and suicide. Shinto-ism, for example, allows for the practice of hara kara (which is ritual suicide) when the person dishonors him or her self. I'm sure there are Christian protestant denominations who allow it as well. You define a morality based upon a narrowly defined view of God.

But even you, as a Catholic christian, has to believe in "free will" (or else you can't be a Catholic). If God has given humankind "free will," why should the government legislate against it?

[sammiedebull]

God states in any religion that you are NOT allowed to take your own life, God states that NO one is allowed to take anyone elses life unless it is in the form of self defence or to protect his family or neighbors. According to your standard, we would have a world full of chaos. I agree God wants everyone to be free, But God also wants limits on that free will, God knows that people are sometimes not rational.

We live in a democracy, the government has to keep order, it has to make laws, it has to make it so that we can all live together. Free will could mean that i believe that i have the right to kill anyone i want, i can do what i please, i can go steal, i can rob a bank. Your logic is flawed, this is where a higher power (the government) comes in and makes laws so that there will not be chaos.

Can you image there are labs where you can go to end your life, kuvorkian type people all ove rthe place that you can pay $500 and you can be dead in five minutes, do you think God would approve of this. Do people feel like its the end of the world when they have hard times. Laws and other legislation are there for a reason, No one just work up one morning and said" Hey, this sounds liek a great idea, lets screw everyone".

[david]

I know this is going to boggle some minds, but since we are on the subject...

You know how we were always taught that "Jesus opened the gates of heaven for us", and that "through Jesus we will find heaven". So what about all of the religious, good hearted people who are not Christian? What about the people who truly do not believe in Jesus but live respectful lives? Do they not have the right to go to heaven or some form of afterlife? Religion, in my eyes at least, is not meant to be followed like you are brainwashed, but the basic principles of religion, through use of stories and such, are there so you can make educated decisions throughout your life, and not having to say "oh well the bible says this, and the bible says that". You make decisions based on your own understand and using your own mind, not always what "the bible" has written in stone. Ok, flame away at me now while I go hide *:hiding:

[Teffo]

david i think you have truth to what your sayng, but just remember that religion is a man made thing...

everyone interprets thigns different and i for one do not think that only christians will go to heaven, but i do believe that if someone takes their life (unless trying to protect someone else) that they will not go to heaven

[renee]

God states in any religion that you are NOT allowed to take your own life, God states that NO one is allowed to take anyone elses life unless it is in the form of self defence or to protect his family or neighbors. According to your standard, we would have a world full of chaos. I agree God wants everyone to be free, But God also wants limits on that free will, God knows that people are sometimes not rational.

We live in a democracy, the government has to keep order, it has to make laws, it has to make it so that we can all live together. Free will could mean that i believe that i have the right to kill anyone i want, i can do what i please, i can go steal, i can rob a bank. Your logic is flawed, this is where a higher power (the government) comes in and makes laws so that there will not be chaos.

Can you image there are labs where you can go to end your life, kuvorkian type people all ove rthe place that you can pay $500 and you can be dead in five minutes, do you think God would approve of this. Do people feel like its the end of the world when they have hard times. Laws and other legislation are there for a reason, No one just work up one morning and said" Hey, this sounds liek a great idea, lets screw everyone".

First, that is simply not true. You obviously don't know anything about eastern religions. Second, while it is in the government's purview to keep order, I cause no disorder if I kill myself when the MS makes me a cripple in pain. Third, read about the Natural Law. Especially the stuff written by Church Doctor St. Thomas Aquinas. I've quoted this here before but here it is for you. It comes straight from his writings: "Nature law is binding on all men because it is know by reason alone. Divine law binds only the faithful to whom it has been revealed."

Don't try to apply Divine (God's) law to unbelievers. It's wrong and it is simply not Christian.

[sammiedebull]

Eastern religions are a whole different story, i mean the main regigions like christianity, islam and judism.

[sammiedebull]

I agree, everyone can go to heaven, there are just a few that may have a problem :

1) dont believe in god. (athiest/agnostic - yes, i know the different)

2) comitt suicide (this is one of the worst also).

3) gays (i have nothing against them, but i think that god is really against this.)

God is forgiving, that is for sure, but the 3 above God may not be to happy about :(

[Samuel]

God states in any religion that you are NOT allowed to take your own life, God states that NO one is allowed to take anyone elses life unless it is in the form of self defence or to protect his family or neighbors. According to your standard, we would have a world full of chaos. I agree God wants everyone to be free, But God also wants limits on that free will, God knows that people are sometimes not rational.

We live in a democracy, the government has to keep order, it has to make laws, it has to make it so that we can all live together. Free will could mean that i believe that i have the right to kill anyone i want, i can do what i please, i can go steal, i can rob a bank. Your logic is flawed, this is where a higher power (the government) comes in and makes laws so that there will not be chaos.

Can you image there are labs where you can go to end your life, kuvorkian type people all ove rthe place that you can pay $500 and you can be dead in five minutes, do you think God would approve of this. Do people feel like its the end of the world when they have hard times. Laws and other legislation are there for a reason, No one just work up one morning and said" Hey, this sounds liek a great idea, lets screw everyone".

First, that is simply not true. You obviously don't know anything about eastern religions. Second, while it is in the government's purview to keep order, I cause no disorder if I kill myself when the MS makes me a cripple in pain. Third, read about the Natural Law. Especially the stuff written by Church Doctor St. Thomas Aquinas. I've quoted this here before but here it is for you. It comes straight from his writings: "Nature law is binding on all men because it is know by reason alone. Divine law binds only the faithful to whom it has been revealed."

Don't try to apply Divine (God's) law to unbelievers. It's wrong and it is simply not Christian.


A lot of what Thomas Aquinas (one of the most reknown scholars of the church) had to say has been crapped on by POLITICALLY motivated Popes.

If you lived at the time of Thomas Aquinas (13th century) you would have had so many different beliefs as catholics ( the lord is so indecisive)! *Most strangely of all, you would accept Aristotle's [primitive] concept of hylomorphism, and with that reasoning, think that early stage abortion was OK in the eye's of the mighty one (just as the church did at the time!).

Anyway, for sammie -- i'd like to remind him that morality does (maybe more frequently?) exist outside of religion. *You don't have to be fearful of hell, to be a good person.

[Peter]

Jesus christ people. *Read a fvcking book. *:roll:


As far as A LOT of people are concerned , hell is a figment of your imagination. *You don't justify laws based on fairytales you perceive as truth.

Let's look at the facts for once. *Life carries intrinsic value. *Sacred, intrinsic value (based on the complexity inherent in human life). *Even an atheist will admit to this. *That value diminishes as the person is better off dead, than alive. *If a person is suffering from a pernicious existence (pain?), then it's better to just let them go. *End of fvcking story.

Samd, we all know u like to take a political stand point on topics and i respect that but u should also remember that your discussing a topic with people of faith and you should respect what they say and believe and not be so dismissive and insulting to them, there are many differant things people chose to believe and there are many differant ways they chose to perceive them...Think what u want, say what u want, *but let others do the same with out persecution.

If you're going to assert that one will be "damned" for eternity when seeking relief for something you otherwise wouldn't begin to understand unless you were in his shoes, your reasoning better be more convincing than something contrived out of Chapter 4 of "Lord of the Rings." *All i ask for are universal principles. *Something that makes sense outside the confines of "blind faith." *The bible hasn't proven to be universal, consistent, or geniuine in its origins. *Thus your attempt at presenting an "objective" opinion meanwhile referencing to the bible is laughable at best. *You're just repeating rhetoric you heard from your parents. *If i wanted to hear a parrot, i'd visit the zoo.

From this post I see that your understanding and knowlage of the Bible is limited because what i said was "contrived" from it and not from lord of the rings (btw never read it). You don’t think bible is from genuine origins, have you ever heard of dead sea scrolls?
http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/library/scroll.htm

Not enough for you? Lets take this to another level, one that you have a better understanding, the U.S law.


"...reasons for recognizing and acting on the distinction between refusing treatment and assisting a suicide--including prohibiting intentional killing and preserving life; preventing suicide; maintaining physicians' role as their patients' healers; protecting vulnerable people from indifference, prejudice, and psychological and financial pressure to end their lives; and avoiding a possible slide towards euthanasia--are valid and important public interests that easily satisfy the constitutional requirement that a legislative classification bear a rational relation to some legitimate end." See Glucksberg, ante. Pp. 13-14.

In Vacco v. Quill and Washington v. Glucksberg, the Supreme Court ruled that assisted suicide is not a constitutional right.

The U.S. Congress approved by an overwhelming margin in 1997 a law barring the funding of assisted suicide with federal dollars.

Currently, assisting suicide is a crime in all but one state, directly banned by statute in 38 states.

As for the remark that i am my parent’s “parrot” as you so eloquently put it. Any comments i said or say are from my own intellect, possibly influenced by others, but are never merely a repetition. I would have found it more impressive if you had insulted me with your knowledge rather then with a childish offense…
But i will play it your way...


If i wanted my religious beliefs slaughtered by an atheist prick I would watch Bill Maher's :alright:

[david]

I agree, everyone can go to heaven, there are just a few that may have a problem :

1) dont believe in god. (athiest/agnostic - yes, i know the different)

2) comitt suicide (this is one of the worst also).

3) gays (i have nothing against them, but i think that god is really against this.)

God is forgiving, that is for sure, but the 3 above God may not be to happy about :(

uh. wow. i am not going to comment on the first one, because I simply have no remark. But the second two? I dont think that you cant go to heaven if you want to stop living, especially if it is because of disease. If you think morally, then you would say this was a good person, but they needed to leave because they were going through so much pain and suffering. And gay people? wow, i can see the extremely traditionalist catholic in you, because I am completely accepting of homosexuals, and I dont think that because their sexual preference is different from yours that they dont get to go to heaven. sorry but I think thats just bullshit.

[sammiedebull]

1) Bill Maher's = ughhhhhhhh! i hate that guy with a passion!!! well said Peter!!!

2) David, I have NOTHING against anyone gay, i wish them a happy life, that is my social view on it, they have the "basic" rights that we all have (other than marriage of course because that is different). I do not preech violence or anything against anyone gay, if they want to be gay than let them be. What i say is that God does not accept such actions and it is punishable big time. God cant forgive almost anything man has done, but some things are just way out there.

3) Peter, samd is always like this, works up his 15-20 min posts, references from many sources and tries to make an arguement out of a bunch of crap. Be real my friend, say wahst on your mind, not whats in a book.

4) About his parents influencing him, HELL YES, i think my parents influenced me, if your parents dont raise you the right way from day one, who knows where you will end up, I am sure when you have kids you will understand what this process is like. Everyone carrys the good and bad traits from their parents.

5) You should not be scared of hell, you should be detered from it, i mean come on :

Be GOOD = go to nice please and relax with God.

Be BAD = Burn in hell.

What is the rational choice? think about it.

Its funny because God does not expect perfection. God accepts that you follow the basic principals of binge honest, polite, dont steal, dont harm others, protect your family, protect your friends and neighbors and pray to him. Most people dont even do the basics, they steal, they lie, they decieve, society as a whole is plunging because people dont really see a deterent anymore. If you are telling me religion does not play a huge role in keeping the world sane than you are crazy.

Sure, religion also brings many conflicts, but i would rather deal with the conflicts than having a bunch of people roaming around with no belief.

6) Those people who dont have a strong bond with a higher bieng usually are not the greatest citizin. I wonder, the people you see at church, most of them are really good people, i wonder, the people you see at a casino or strip club, some are good people, but the intention is not the best!.

7) Life is a test to see how well you do for later on, for the later life, judgement. You DO NOT have to be a specific religion to go to heaven, you do not have to be perfect, you just need to think about your actions and do more good than bad.

8) I want to add one to my list of retards who will have it hard :

ADDED : child killers or molestors, you bastards are screwed, but again, its in gods hands.

[david]

well my parents raised me the right way? They brought me up in a catholic faith but have given me the choice to decide what I believe is right for myself. I think thats the best thing any parent can do, show their child the door, but let their child find the key.

[sammiedebull]

sure, I agree with you, but your parents should pass down the values and morals of your religion and to be tolerant of other religions. After you are out, you are free to do what ever you want to do.

[david]

the values and morals my parents taught me do not only pertain to christianity. they are universal. which i feel is more important to me.

[Peter]

1) Bill Maher's = ughhhhhhhh! i hate that guy with a passion!!! well said Peter!!!

2) David, I have NOTHING against anyone gay, i wish them a happy life, that is my social view on it, they have the "basic" rights that we all have (other than marriage of course because that is different). I do not preech violence or anything against anyone gay, if they want to be gay than let them be. What i say is that God does not accept such actions and it is punishable big time. God cant forgive almost anything man has done, but some things are just way out there.

3) Peter, samd is always like this, works up his 15-20 min posts, references from many sources and tries to make an arguement out of a bunch of crap. Be real my friend, say wahst on your mind, not whats in a book.

4) About his parents influencing him, HELL YES, i think my parents influenced me, if your parents dont raise you the right way from day one, who knows where you will end up, I am sure when you have kids you will understand what this process is like. Everyone carrys the good and bad traits from their parents.

5) You should not be scared of hell, you should be detered from it, i mean come on :

Be GOOD = go to nice please and relax with God.

Be BAD = Burn in hell.

What is the rational choice? think about it.

Its funny because God does not expect perfection. God accepts that you follow the basic principals of binge honest, polite, dont steal, dont harm others, protect your family, protect your friends and neighbors and pray to him. Most people dont even do the basics, they steal, they lie, they decieve, society as a whole is plunging because people dont really see a deterent anymore. If you are telling me religion does not play a huge role in keeping the world sane than you are crazy.

Sure, religion also brings many conflicts, but i would rather deal with the conflicts than having a bunch of people roaming around with no belief.

6) Those people who dont have a strong bond with a higher bieng usually are not the greatest citizin. I wonder, the people you see at church, most of them are really good people, i wonder, the people you see at a casino or strip club, some are good people, but the intention is not the best!.

7) Life is a test to see how well you do for later on, for the later life, judgement. You DO NOT have to be a specific religion to go to heaven, you do not have to be perfect, you just need to think about your actions and do more good than bad.

8) I want to add one to my list of retards who will have it hard :

ADDED : child killers, you bastards are screwed, but again, its in gods hands.
i agree with you those sins are harsh, but there is no sin God wont forgive as long as we repent for them. Only sin i cant see him forgiving is suicide because there is no way to repent after your dead...

[Samuel]

Jesus christ people. *Read a fvcking book. *:roll:


As far as A LOT of people are concerned , hell is a figment of your imagination. *You don't justify laws based on fairytales you perceive as truth.

Let's look at the facts for once. *Life carries intrinsic value. *Sacred, intrinsic value (based on the complexity inherent in human life). *Even an atheist will admit to this. *That value diminishes as the person is better off dead, than alive. *If a person is suffering from a pernicious existence (pain?), then it's better to just let them go. *End of fvcking story.

Samd, we all know u like to take a political stand point on topics and i respect that but u should also remember that your discussing a topic with people of faith and you should respect what they say and believe and not be so dismissive and insulting to them, there are many differant things people chose to believe and there are many differant ways they chose to perceive them...Think what u want, say what u want, *but let others do the same with out persecution.

If you're going to assert that one will be "damned" for eternity when seeking relief for something you otherwise wouldn't begin to understand unless you were in his shoes, your reasoning better be more convincing than something contrived out of Chapter 4 of "Lord of the Rings." *All i ask for are universal principles. *Something that makes sense outside the confines of "blind faith." *The bible hasn't proven to be universal, consistent, or geniuine in its origins. *Thus your attempt at presenting an "objective" opinion meanwhile referencing to the bible is laughable at best. *You're just repeating rhetoric you heard from your parents. *If i wanted to hear a parrot, i'd visit the zoo.

From this post I see that your understanding and knowlage of the Bible is limited because what i said was "contrived" from it and not from lord of the rings (btw never read it). You don’t think bible is from genuine origins, have you ever heard of dead sea scrolls?
http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/library/scroll.htm

Not enough for you? Lets take this to another level, one that you have a better understanding, the U.S law.


"...reasons for recognizing and acting on the distinction between refusing treatment and assisting a suicide--including prohibiting intentional killing and preserving life; preventing suicide; maintaining physicians' role as their patients' healers; protecting vulnerable people from indifference, prejudice, and psychological and financial pressure to end their lives; and avoiding a possible slide towards euthanasia--are valid and important public interests that easily satisfy the constitutional requirement that a legislative classification bear a rational relation to some legitimate end." See Glucksberg, ante. Pp. 13-14.

In Vacco v. Quill and Washington v. Glucksberg, the Supreme Court ruled that assisted suicide is not a constitutional right.

The U.S. Congress approved by an overwhelming margin in 1997 a law barring the funding of assisted suicide with federal dollars.

Currently, assisting suicide is a crime in all but one state, directly banned by statute in 38 states.

As for the remark that i am my parent’s “parrot” as you so eloquently put it. Any comments i said or say are from my own intellect, possibly influenced by others, but are never merely a repetition. I would have found it more impressive if you had insulted me with your knowledge rather then with a childish offense…
But i will play it your way...


If i wanted my religious beliefs slaughtered by an atheist prick I would watch Bill Maher's :alright:

Ok...you see the "Lord of the Rings" part was a Joke. *The bible seems a lot like "Lord of the Rings." *Get it? *They're both very great stories, but neither sound very believable. * nvm.. *let's get to the next point.

I'm not very familiar with Vacco v. Quill (actually, i've never even heard of it?), but I have read over Glucksburg. *But that doesn't mean anything. * I have my own reasoning to which i use, not a 2000 year old book, and not the opinion of Opus Dei Catholic fundi, Justice Antonin Scalia. *You'll notice once you get to college, they ask you more and more, to think for yourself. *It's when you reach a certain stage where your opinions actually matter though. *Buttttt if you want to get TECHNICAL, Glucksburg was a doctrinal anachronism. *If you look at 92's Casey v. Planned Parenthood and 73's Roe v. Wade rulings, they contradict government intervention in matters of personal choice, which conservative Justices like Rehnquist and Clarence "i lick scalia's ass" Thomas, don't seem to understand. *Oh yea, and just to clarify things... since you're obviously confused... my argument was based on Intrinsic value, not law... *But i'll let you get all uppity about "teaching me law" anyway, if it makes you feel better about yourself? *haha.

Anyway, the fact of the matter is, if you thought about the issue instead of using public rhetoric to "create your own opinion," -- there's no doubt how you would feel.

You can high-five your buddy Sammie all you want. *It'll just make me laugh harder at the two of you. *:)

[rudy]

I'm sorry but no amount of pain can ever justify anyone wanting to discontinue their life because they don't feel like they should go on. Did anyone forget that Jesus sacrificed his life for each and every one of us. He went through the worst amount of pain & suffering than anyone of us would ever imagine. What makes people feel like they can't go on and shouldn't go on just because they feel some sort of pain, have an uncurable disease, etc. It is our responsibility to make our life valuable and live each moment the best we can.

easier said then done. Ok Rita imagine this. You are pregnant. You are giving birth to your baby. It is the worse pain of your life. The baby is born. But you still feel that pain forever. Would you not want to kill yourself???


Dont lie to me. :twisted:Hey randell I agree with Rita on this one. I personally *don’t agree with assisted suicide and I think the Terry shiavo (wrong spelling sorry) case was nothing short of legal murder. But let’s just say that ending your own life or having a dr. help is o.k... Stop and think of the pain you will put your friends and family through. Death is just that death and by taking your own life you are playing the role of GOD. And you will be held responsible for this before God. But think of it this way lets say someone you love very much gave you a gift that you my enjoy for a while. But get tired of later. And let say that person who you love passes away. Would you throw that gift away? Of course not. you would save it to remember them. right *(please say yes lol). Well life is a gift from God and when people take their own life they are throwing *that gift back at God. Don’t forget we are created in GOD’s image (see Genesis 1:26). The Holy Bible also says in 1Corinthians 3:16&17 that our bodies are the “Temple of GOD and we should not defile this Temple”. And Rita way to go on giving the great example on the suffering our Lord Jesus went through for us. Good Job!! * Thank you and GOD BLESS!! *RUDY :alright:

[rudy]

I would like to add one thing. All you guys Hell is for real!! *the bible speaks about Hell a lot more than it does Heaven. So why do some of you chose to believe in Heaven and not Hell. I can put a million verses here about Hell but I whould like for you guys to look it up for yourself. you can get a Bible Concordance look up the word Hell and see for yourself!! THANKS AND GOD BLESS * * RUDY :alright:

[Teffo]

not trying to sound like a non-believer, but how can you prove a place exsists....just because the bible says it? *we wont know for sure until we die.....

so we can't mistake faith with fact!

[UmiSayz]

not trying to sound like a non-believer, but how can you prove a place exsists....just because the bible says it? *we wont know for sure until we die.....

so we can't mistake faith with fact!


Feeling a lil faithless are we? *:think:

[Teffo]

no...not at all but u cant prove that it exsists... *u can only feel it in ur heart

[UmiSayz]

Yeh but you're questioning it. Just checking ;)

[sammiedebull]

you cant prove religion, you have faith in religion, its that simple, its all driven by faith and what you believe.

[Samuel]

you cant prove religion, you have faith in religion, its that simple, its all driven by faith and what you believe.


simple explanations, for simple minds.

[Teffo]

you cant prove religion, you have faith in religion, its that simple, its all driven by faith and what you believe.


simple explanations, for simple minds.

Oh God you drama queen! *all hail your highness of lil insults....ufffffffff *why does everything need an elaborate answer? *can't things just be simple...is white really white or is it a crap load of colors mixed together....

i dunno but samd will sure as hell research it and let us all know! *dun dun duuuuun to be continued! :alright:

[rudy]

not trying to sound like a non-believer, but how can you prove a place exsists....just because the bible says it? *we wont know for sure until we die.....

so we can't mistake faith with fact!Ok teffo if you want to question hell on weather it exist. Than you need to question the whole Bible. Now I’m assuming we all believe in Jesus Christ and the words he spoke, right? Well Jesus says these words in John chapter 12 verse 47 “I came not to judge the world, but to save the world” my question to you is this SAVE US FROM WHAT!? :alright: * THANK YOU AND GOD BLESS *RUDY

[Samuel]

you cant prove religion, you have faith in religion, its that simple, its all driven by faith and what you believe.


simple explanations, for simple minds.

Oh God you drama queen! *all hail your highness of lil insults....ufffffffff *why does everything need an elaborate answer? *can't things just be simple...is white really white or is it a crap load of colors mixed together....

i dunno but samd will sure as hell research it and let us all know! *dun dun duuuuun to be continued! :alright:

I can picture you flirting with the "ban" button as you wait for me to reply. *

Shouldn't you be busy reading that "Big Che" book you just bought? *Wait no, the cover should suffice. *The rest just seems superfluous doesn't it? *Let's make up stories about him instead. *Oo he had a beard. *He must have been a muslim man.. *yea, ok... now i go post in thread and everyone respect my smartness.

[Teffo]

first of all genius....u have the wrong person go read the thread...i didnt say anything about him i dont know crap about him! *teeehee

second...what the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in china? :think:

[Samuel]

why is it...that you can't take ppls opinions...YOU'RE WAY IS NOT THE ONLY WAY OK...

sometimes it seems as though you yourself have a communist mentality...

i think he was interesting and i just bought a huge book on che....


How often do Mods get owned by measly regulars?

[Teffo]

how did u own me u freak! *did i say i was reading it? *shmuck! *dont make me call ur gf!!!

[Samuel]

how did u own me u freak! *did i say i was reading it? *shmuck! *dont make me call ur gf!!!

So you bought a book that you're not going to read. *What was the point in mentioning your purchase?

[Teffo]

no genius im in the middle of another book! angels & demons :)

[JerkFace]

samd...whats why does she have to delete my post when all i said was shut up already??? & stop tryin to bust her balls..your gettin annoying & tryin a little too hard to "outsmart" her or whatever your tryin to do

[Teffo]

he can try but he wont succeed :)