Religion and Marriage

[an]

As you guys all know we have talked about marriage and marrying into different cultures and wether we would even marry outside of our dialect,village etc.

So the question now is what happens when you find a guy or girl who is chaldean or assyrian and the same dialect/village relation etc etc. *

[glow=crimson:9916254e27]But ONE CATCH they have a different religion??[/glow:9916254e27]

You all know with the recent influx of chaldeans other religons have migrated to the U.S such as lutherans, baptists, orthodox,maronites. (i mights have missed some more)

[lyna]

I would never marry a guy with a different religion because its hard enough to keep the marriage going having the same believes so imagine if we had different religion and different believes. *It would also be hard to decide which church to go to on speical occasion example: Christmas, Easter and even to Baptise our children and more so where to have the wedding ceremony.

Different culture is ok but it has to be the same religion.

[Rita]

I care more about religion than culture. I would definately marry someone who's not Chaldean but is Catholic than to marry a Chaldean who is a Jehovah.

An, I would marry any Christian. There are different types of Christianity, which Catholic is one of them. We are still pretty much the same when it comes to religion. I would not marry someone who is a Jehovah, Muslim, Buddhist, etc.

[caz]

^^^^ *:applause: , i have to agree with rita, totally agree, it dont matter wat kind of christianity as long as they believe in god and the bible that i believe in thats all that matters, cause other things can come in later as a compromise not everyone agrees on things even when their married of the same religion *so thats no biggie, as long as hes christian thats all that matters *:alright: ,

[rudy]

As you guys all know we have talked about marriage and marrying into different cultures and wether we would even marry outside of our dialect,village etc.

So the question now is what happens when you find a guy or girl who is chaldean or assyrian and the same dialect/village relation etc etc. *

[glow=crimson:932087d8ce]But ONE CATCH they have a different religion??[/glow:932087d8ce]

You all know with the recent influx of chaldeans other religons have migrated to the U.S such as lutherans, baptists, orthodox,maronites. (i mights have missed some more) Hi an correct me if i'm misunderstanding your comment when you say "other realigns have mighrated to the U.S. such as Lutherans, Baptist, orthodox, Maronites". The Protestant's & Baptist were the among the first to come to this land and estaplish the United States itself. remember most of our founding fathers were protestant and/or Baptist. But again if I misunderstood what u were trying to say please correct me. now to the topic as a Christian myself I would never dare to marry a non-believer. And I believe it is a sin to marry a non-believer. the Bible talks alot on this subject. for example in 2corinthians 6:14 says "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers.." There are many other. So as Christians we are to be friend and show respect to all as a matter of fact the Bible says to Love and feed your enemy. But when it comes to marriage there are some strict rules. and one last not Jehovas Witness are not christian nor are Mormons. Thank YOu & GOD BLESS

[Anonymous]

Well said Rudy! :applause:

[UmiSayz]

So who does the Christians consider a non believer Rudy?

[Rita]

Rudy: Who said Jehovas were Christian? I don't think anyone was arguing that?

[an]

As you guys all know we have talked about marriage and marrying into different cultures and wether we would even marry outside of our dialect,village etc.

So the question now is what happens when you find a guy or girl who is chaldean or assyrian and the same dialect/village relation etc etc. *

[glow=crimson:f0eea7a9a9]But ONE CATCH they have a different religion??[/glow:f0eea7a9a9]

You all know with the recent influx of chaldeans other religons have migrated to the U.S such as lutherans, baptists, orthodox,maronites. (i mights have missed some more) Hi an correct me if i'm misunderstanding your comment when you say "other realigns have mighrated to the U.S. such as Lutherans, Baptist, orthodox, Maronites". The Protestant's & Baptist were the among the first to come to this land and estaplish the United States itself. remember most of our founding fathers were protestant and/or Baptist. But again if I misunderstood what u were trying to say please correct me. now to the topic as a Christian myself I would never dare to marry a non-believer. And I believe it is a sin to marry a non-believer. the Bible talks alot on this subject. for example in 2corinthians 6:14 says "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers.." There are many other. So as Christians we are to be friend and show respect to all as a matter of fact the Bible says to Love and feed your enemy. But when it comes to marriage there are some strict rules. and one last not Jehovas Witness are not christian nor are Mormons. Thank YOu & GOD BLESS


Im talking about the chaldeans who are not catholics.

[ojeen1981]

My ideal marriage is to, first and foremost, a woman who believes in Jesus Christ and the Biblical teachings and secondly an Iraqi ( I could care less what village she is from). *And I agree with rudy.

[an]

Well to be honest myself. *I would have an issue if there was no baptisim, first holy communion, religious holiday, and the overall belief of the virgin marry.

I think one of the biggest differences i happen to see is the fact that many religions have this persona that mircals can't happen and the virgin marry with child is one of them. *this is where i draw the line.

Religion is a big deal to me. Most people when raising there kids also look at religion and early on as a baby in our culture (baptism) is the first step.

Along the lines somewhere at 7-8 years old first holy commuion comes along. and along the way this process of cathacism.

Now do i know that other religions not do some of these things. Yes there are certian things that they don't do.

Can anybody point out what these specific chaldean religions not believe in??? *Can you live with out the fact of communion, fasting, or the fact that there is no confession in the face of the priest?

[pfizzles_sister101]

I would strickly marry a guy whose chaldean, most definitly a Roman catholic and my parents have to agree with him and of course my mom and dad would have find out about his family and then if that list is forfilled, then we can think about marriage!!

[ojeen1981]

I respect what you said! We all should care allot about religion and try our best to manifest it. I don’t think that anyone who knows his theology and have read the Bible can argue against the blessed virgin birth of our Lord Jesus Christ from Merry. *I myself like to draw a line between traditional norms and my faith. *I love my culture, but I love my God even more, and this is where I started to make a distinction. *I think that people should first and foremost read the Bible, (the Gospels) to understand what Jesus taught and then worry about such things as baptism, communion and so on… these things are secondarily to faith! Baptism or communion does not save you, what saves you is believing in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. *Thanks all..peace

[UmiSayz]

*I think that people should first and foremost read the Bible, (the Gospels)




I read it. Still didn't convince me to become a christian.




Back to the topic. Love is truely blind. I know numerous of ppl sayin that oh i'm not goin to marry this type of person yadda yadda . They ended up marrying that type of person that they swore on there life that wouldn't. Its funny how things like that work. Just accept whoever comes into your life cause you dont what God has in stores for you ;)

[Rita]

I agree with An. There are soem Christians who do not believe that the Virgin Mary was a virgin, only that she was the mother of Jesus Christ. They do not value her & pray to her as much as we do. I would not be with someone who thought this way either. As far as fasting goes, if they do not choose to believe in it, I guess it's ok. It doesn't limit me on fasting on my own or teaching my kids to fast. There are many Chaldeans who are Catholic who do not practice fasting so what's the difference?

[ojeen1981]

how you doing umi (by the way are you named after the great umiyed empire) if you dont mind me asking, and please stop me if i am being intrusive, what about the gospels did not convince you?? thanks much....

I just wanna stress that Faith in Jesus comes before baptism, commuinon and so on..peace!

[caz]

^^ i agree with u but u also gotta keep in mind that not everyone on here is christian and i think everyone is different so for Umi he read it but was not convinced so i guess he at least read it which was great *:think: * :mrgreen:

[rudy]

Ok you guys let me say a few things and please feel free to ask me what ever you want either here or you can pm me so thing don’t get out of hand. 1. My definition of a believer is this. Those who put their faith in the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and believe he is the Son of the God and at the same time God himself in human flesh. 2 in case any of you are wondering what kind of church I go to I go to a Baptist church. 3 do I believe all Baptist will go to heaven? NO. 4 do I believe All Catholics will go to Hell? NO. Ext. ext.. 4 Do I believe Jesus Christ was born of a Virgin? YES. 5 Do I believe Mary played a very important role in Christianity? YES. 6. Do I believe Mary had more children after Jesus? YES. 7. Do I believe we should hold Mary to the Level of God? NO. 8. Do I believe we should pray to Mary or any Saints? NO. 9 for any of our Muslims friends out there I have to say this. I respect most Muslims and have sympathy for some of the atrocities committed towards you. As a matter of fact my family is indebted to a good Muslims man who risked his life to drive my mother my sister and me when I was a baby from Jordan to Beirut to safety. But to stay on the subject. I still believe you need to know what was the true purpose behind the birth, death and resurrection of our Blessed Lord Jesus is he was much more than just a great prophet. Please people be nice to me now (LOL). Thank you and GOD Bless.

[caz]

k rudy i like wat u said, now i have a guestion for u im honestly just curious thats y i wanna know, y do u not pray to pray or ask for guidance from her or any saints i mean they were as big part of our faith as any thing else i mean noone comes close to jesus and god but still they should be acknowledged in our prayers shouldnt they? *:think: *just wondering

:mrgreen: *tanks

[rudy]

k rudy i like wat u said, now i have a guestion for u im honestly just curious thats y i wanna know, y do u not pray to pray or ask for guidance from her or any saints i mean they were as big part of our faith as any thing else i mean noone comes close to jesus and god but still they should be acknowledged in our prayers shouldnt they? *:think: *just wondering

:mrgreen: *tanks OK caz I tell you what. I can give you a million Bible verses to prove my point and I'm very confident with this subject because the Bible is very clear on it. But here is what I'll ask you to do. Find me 1 just 1 verse in the whole Bible that tells me to pray to Mary or any of the saints. Is this fair enough for you? Please let me know. Thank you and God Bless. * :alright:

[caz]

thanks rudy but i didn't ask u if it tells us to and y u dont follow it, i dont need to look in the bible i know wat it says and yes it doesn't say anywhere we have to pray for them but all i wanna know is y dont u guys pray to them anyway? is it because u strictly follow the bible and what it says is that y, i mean i do follow the bible but i still pray to the saints and mary because i believe in what they did was good and great *work *:think: *just curious

[rudy]

thanks rudy but i didn't ask u if it tells us to and y u dont follow it, i dont need to look in the bible i know wat it says and yes it doesn't say anywhere we have to pray for them but all i wanna know is y dont u guys pray to them anyway? is it because u strictly follow the bible and what it says is that y, i mean i do follow the bible but i still pray to the saints and mary because i believe in what they did was good and great *work *:think: *just curious Ok. Why I choose not to pray to Mary is this. The Webster defines the word prayer as this. "a. A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship" so it is clear that prayer is a form of worship. Right? now in Exodus chapter 20 verse 5 it says this " thou shall not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God" now there are a million more verses that I can give you from the Bible that says we are not to direct our prayer to any one else no matter how important they are. So to answer your question I don’t pray to her because 1st she can’t hear me 2nd God doesn’t want me to 3rd I choose to worship the one and true God. So I hope I answered your question. Thank you and God Bless

[caz]

ok all i gotta say is "wow", i really dont like how u said "god does not want me to", i wish god, could tell u in some way shape or form that ur totally wrong, because mary, is the mother of jesus which is the son of god, so of course she can hear u i don't understand how u can say she cant hear u, did she not go up to heaven, did she not, go where her son is and be with him, *:think: , so how can u say she cant hear u, i mean in the way ur stating it all these years all these millions of ppls prayers that have been answered by mary, or could it have been someone else, rudy i respect wat ur sayin and where ur comin from, *and wat u believe in but i really would like to see that no matter wat religion or christianity u may be, that we dont just dismiss her, i mean she was a big part in our religion and yes i hear "she was only the mother and nothing else" that is very wrong, because as *i recall, when jesus was being crucified he told peter to take care of his mother, *:think: , now y would he say that, i mean yeah jesus says the prayer of my father and not the prayer of my mother, but we have those words given to us " holy mary mother of god" i know u dont believe in that jesus is god vias versa but , man id love to discuss this forever, but *

all i gotta say is i know where ur *comin from and i respect it totally i just wanted to point out that she is a significant person and i dont think that god just wanted her to be known as the "mother of jesus" and forget about her, because she still plays a big role in our lives and has shown miracles to ppl including my own family and cured my mother so, its really hard for me to just dismiss her and her role in our religion or in the events that happened thousand of yrs ago *:alright: *

cant wait to see wat ur gonna say hehe lol *:mrgreen:

[Rita]

Rudy, are you a Catholic Chrisitian or a Baptist?

I will pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary. I do not believe she had other kids after Jesus. Catholics pray the rosary daily and it is encouraged to do so. There are prayers that are for her as well. I'm sure you have heard of the famous prayer called "Hail Mary." Are you trying to tell us not to pray to her? If so, I'm sorry but take your teachings elsewhere. You're like a Jehovah that won't stop knocking on my door. LOL j/k ;)

[rudy]

Ok you guys listen, if you read what I wrote you will see how you are trying to put words into my mouth that I never said. I consider Mary to be Blessed among woman just like it says in Luke 2:42. I also believe I have more respect for her than you do! Because I understand what she was saying in John 2:5 when she said Whatever he (Jesus) says do it. Ok you also said how Jesus said to peter on the cross to take care of his mother. Can you tell me where that is found? Let me help you its in John 19:26-27 and it wasn’t peter it was John he was talking too. If you study the history of people in those days you will learn that when the husband dies the oldest son takes care of the mother. And guess who was Mary’s oldest son? Jesus who was being crucified. You also asked me why I believe Mary had more children. Go to Matthew 12:46-48 it says this “While he (Jesus) was talking to the people behold, his mother AND HIS BROTHERS stood outside wanting to speak to him. And there are more verses if you want them. Let me ask you this. Why is it so bad to you guys if Mary did have children? She was married so what is the problem? Is your mother a lesser of a person because she has children? See what I’m saying you are degrading her not me. And one last thing. I don’t believe she or any of the other saints can hear us. If they can then they are gods too. Because if you living in Michigan are praying to her and Joe shmo in England is praying to her who is she listing to? She is not omnipresent Only God is. He is everywhere at every time. And I know what you are going to say. “We ask her to go to God for us like a mediator”. Well do you know what it says in 1 Timothy 2:5 ‘There is one mediator between God and man and that is Christ Jesus. And please take note: I WAS QUOTEING FROM A CATHOLIC BIBLE so please don’t try to use that argument with me. I asked you to give me one Bible verse to back up what you are saying and you were unable too. You live in a country that allows you to educate yourself. So why is it so hard for you to simply Open your Bible and read for yourself. Again I will say this like I have said many times before. Don’t take my word for it read for yourself. PLEASE PLEASE READ FOR YOURSELF!!!!! Without the Bible we would not know what was the purpose of the life of Jesus. SO GO AND READ and refute what I said. Thank you and GOD Bless.

[missbaghdad]

Back to the topic. Love is truely blind. I know numerous of ppl sayin that oh i'm not goin to marry this type of person yadda yadda . They ended up marrying that type of person that they swore on there life that wouldn't. Its funny how things like that work. Just accept whoever comes into your life cause you dont what God has in stores for you ;)

I don't disagree with you at all Umi, but to actually be in this situation is much more difficult than most would imagine. I would LOVE to hear more of your thoughts on this because I know that your parents are two different religions (right?). Was it difficult for you? What did/do your parents do to encourage you about choosing your religion? Does your mom go to church by herself? Etc...

I've been in this situation before and let it go because I don't want to be with someone who takes me away from my faith. Because the guy I was dating didn't understand some of the things related to Catholocism (lent, going to church, etc) he made me sometimes feel bad about it or discouraged me from it. I know that's not the case all the time but I felt I learned from that experience that religion is a HUGE deal when it comes to compatability. And not to forget, especially when you have kids...

[caz]

[quote=caz @ Wed May 25, 2005 4:58 pm]thanks rudy but i didn't ask u if it tells us to and y u dont follow it, i dont need to look in the bible i know wat it says and yes it doesn't say anywhere we have to pray to them

i like wat u said it had truth, im sry, but i still disagree with u, they can hear and they have how can u explain all the miracles then that god has helped mary and all the saints perform, u mean to tell me it wasnt them *:think:

[Samuel]

You people have to admit that a certain aspect of this thread was genuinely funny. *Most everyone shares the same opinion (not happenstance - just an unfortunate occurence prevalent amongst Chaldeans) based on the cushioned context *of "blind faith" (a realm where "anything" goes - so long as you have the proper ancient documentations to back up your fairytale claims). *Your allegiance to your god supersedes all other loyalties. *While that's admirable, I wonder if you realize "your" beliefs are really what your parents shoved down your throats? * More likely than not, had you been born into another faith, your adamance in marrying one who shares that same religion would be just as strong. *So the underlying factor isn't the bible. *It isn't even Jesus. *It's YOU. *You people are stuck on yourselves. *Take an ontological step backwards, and realize that you aren't even all that important. *People (especially if they are more intelligent than you) don't have to change their beliefs, because "so-and-so" was born Catholic.

[Samuel]

SamIAM: *I'd like to propose two new mottos for the current state of this site. *

ChaldeanChat.net! *Your Chaldean History Lesson Away from Your Grandma!


ChaldeanChat.net! *Indoctrination, apart from Mass!

[caz]

im sry come again, r u trying to tell me that my faith in god is just merely a figment of my imagination because it is wat was influenced around me growing up because of my parents *:think:

[Samuel]

im sry come again, r u trying to tell me that my faith in god is just merely a figment of my imagination because it is wat was influenced around me growing up because of my parents *:think:


If you were born Jewish, you would expect your husband to be Jewish. *It isn't about the Bible. *It isn't about Jesus. *It's a feigned devotion to Catholicism. *It's about YOU.

[missbaghdad]

You people have to admit that a certain aspect of this thread was genuinely funny. *Most everyone shares the same opinion (not happenstance - just an unfortunate occurence prevalent amongst Chaldeans) based on the cushioned context *of "blind faith" (a realm where "anything" goes - so long as you have the proper ancient documentations to back up your fairytale claims). *Your allegiance to your god supersedes all other loyalties. *While that's admirable, I wonder if you realize "your" beliefs are really what your parents shoved down your throats? * More likely than not, had you been born into another faith, your adamance in marrying one who shares that same religion would be just as strong. *So the underlying factor isn't the bible. *It isn't even Jesus. *It's YOU. *You people are stuck on yourselves. *Take an ontological step backwards, and realize that you aren't even all that important. *People (especially if they are more intelligent than you) don't have to change their beliefs, because "so-and-so" was born Catholic.

You are absolutely right!

But everyone should or does go through a phase in their life where they stop being Catholic (or Jewish or ) simply because they were raised Catholic. For some people it's in their teens or twenties, other people it might be later. You question your faith, some/many people even shop around and go to different churches or temples. Ultimately, you decide if you believe what you were taught and if you do, that's called faith. And as an adult, you had the right and the opportunity to decide it for yourself.

I definitely went through that.

[Samuel]

You people have to admit that a certain aspect of this thread was genuinely funny. *Most everyone shares the same opinion (not happenstance - just an unfortunate occurence prevalent amongst Chaldeans) based on the cushioned context *of "blind faith" (a realm where "anything" goes - so long as you have the proper ancient documentations to back up your fairytale claims). *Your allegiance to your god supersedes all other loyalties. *While that's admirable, I wonder if you realize "your" beliefs are really what your parents shoved down your throats? * More likely than not, had you been born into another faith, your adamance in marrying one who shares that same religion would be just as strong. *So the underlying factor isn't the bible. *It isn't even Jesus. *It's YOU. *You people are stuck on yourselves. *Take an ontological step backwards, and realize that you aren't even all that important. *People (especially if they are more intelligent than you) don't have to change their beliefs, because "so-and-so" was born Catholic.

You are absolutely right!



K, but when am I not? *

JK * :alright:

[missbaghdad]

Willak you have to reply to more than just that sentence!!!!!!

[Samuel]

Willak you have to reply to more than just that sentence!!!!!!


hahaha. *Well I didn't feel i needed to. *There's nothing I can say about you generalizing your own personal experience. *If you feel that everyone goes through such a stage, that's fine. *I can't really argue against such an opinion, because I have no way of proving it wrong. *I'm only 20. *Whether I grow out of this "stage" or not has yet to be determined. * :alright:

[proudchaldean]

Rudy...the official catholic church teaching on praying to mary and the saints is that it is WRONG!!! *The prayers we say are asking them to intercede on our behalf...please show me any words in the hail mary that elevate her to the level of god..."holy mary mother of god, PRAY FOR US SINNERS" we are asking her to pray for us...I agree that many catholics might not realize this...but the bottom line is the church teaching is that we do not pray TO mary and the saints but merely ask them to intercede on our behalf.

[missbaghdad]

Willak you have to reply to more than just that sentence!!!!!!


hahaha. *Well I didn't feel i needed to. *There's nothing I can say about you generalizing your own personal experience. *If you feel that everyone goes through such a stage, that's fine. *I can't really argue against such an opinion, because I have no way of proving it wrong. *I'm only 20. *Whether I grow out of this "stage" or not has yet to be determined. * :alright:

Maybe not everyone goes through that... there are probably many people who routinely go to church and don't really understand what they are doing. They repeat the words in church but they don't really mean what they are saying. I used to when I was younger. Then one day it hit me, and it was like all of a sudden I meant what I was saying 1000 times more than I ever did.

I guess that's what I mean by people "should" go through that experience or transformation.

[caz]

Willak you have to reply to more than just that sentence!!!!!!


hahaha. *Well I didn't feel i needed to. *There's nothing I can say about you generalizing your own personal experience. *If you feel that everyone goes through such a stage, that's fine. *I can't really argue against such an opinion, because I have no way of proving it wrong. *I'm only 20. *Whether I grow out of this "stage" or not has yet to be determined. * :alright:

lets hope u do just a tad bit, cause i know wat ur sayin is true its a *method of "classical conditioning" renee would know wat im talkin about, *if u do some thing over and over u are conditioned to the response, such as a baby crying, when the parent comes to comfort him they understand that it, it will happen every time they come, so i guess our faith is a part of who we are growing up and how we are conditioned, buttttttttt
*
i also believe that, we have will power and our own opinions and make choices for ourselves so we cant always be influenced * :think:

[rudy]

[quote=caz @ Wed May 25, 2005 4:58 pm]thanks rudy but i didn't ask u if it tells us to and y u dont follow it, i dont need to look in the bible i know wat it says and yes it doesn't say anywhere we have to pray to them

i like wat u said it had truth, im sry, but i still disagree with u, they can hear and they have how can u explain all the miracles then that god has helped mary and all the saints perform, u mean to tell me it wasnt them *:think: Ok caz I'm going to answer your question with this. Do you know what the devil and his demons are doing today? *His is trying to deceive God’s children to get them to turn away or never to hear about the Grace of our Lord Jesus (see 1peter *5: 8). He will do what ever it takes to deceive you and me. No he is not some ugly monster with a pitch fork. But he is very very powerful. In *Jude chapter 9 the Bible says that not even Michael the arc angle was able to defeat him. Until he told him “I rebuke you in the name of the LORD” and Satan departed. He even tried to temp the Lord Jesus himself (see john chap4) but he failed. The bible even says that the devil and his demons will transform themselves into “Angles of light and will deceive many”. So what I’m trying to say if you are directing your prayers to anyone other than God himself. YOU BETTER NOT HOPE IT GETS ANSWERED because now you are dealing with some serious problems. Listen just answer me this In Psalm chapter 139 God himself invites us to come to his holy thrown in prayer. Why would I try to go through someone else? And also take note of this every time an angle appeared to someone in the Bible and the people began to worship the angle the angel STOPPED THEM and said to worship God alone (see revelation 19:10 & 22:9 and Colossians 2:18 and when people began to worship Jesus himself he never stopped them (for example see john 20:27-29) again don’t take my word for it look it up for yourself!!!! Thank you and God Bless

[UmiSayz]

how you doing umi (by the way are you named after the great umiyed empire)



Umi means "my mother" in arabic.

[an]

thanks rudy but i didn't ask u if it tells us to and y u dont follow it, i dont need to look in the bible i know wat it says and yes it doesn't say anywhere we have to pray for them but all i wanna know is y dont u guys pray to them anyway? is it because u strictly follow the bible and what it says is that y, i mean i do follow the bible but i still pray to the saints and mary because i believe in what they did was good and great *work *:think: *just curious Ok. Why I choose not to pray to Mary is this. The Webster defines the word prayer as this. "a. A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship" so it is clear that prayer is a form of worship. Right? now in Exodus chapter 20 verse 5 it says this " thou shall not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God" now there are a million more verses that I can give you from the Bible that says we are not to direct our prayer to any one else no matter how important they are. So to answer your question I don’t pray to her because 1st she can’t hear me 2nd God doesn’t want me to 3rd I choose to worship the one and true God. So I hope I answered your question. Thank you and God Bless

You seem to quote a lot.

[UmiSayz]

I don't disagree with you at all Umi, but to actually be in this situation is much more difficult than most would imagine. I would LOVE to hear more of your thoughts on this because I know that your parents are two different religions (right?). Was it difficult for you? What did/do your parents do to encourage you about choosing your religion? Does your mom go to church by herself? Etc...




I will discuss this with you through PM ;)

[an]

TO SAMD.

Everyone has there own religion. *As i can see from your many posts in the past you would much rather pick and hagle what you think we are doing wrong.

But you don't see the rest of us saying to you *that you are "stuck on our self" or your threads are "genuinly funny".

I think most of us who decided to go to church or become the catholic faith is the same beliefs we have that the church believes in.

And for some of us who spent years and years working or not going with the family to church and when we finally "grew up" we turned to the church our own. *So not all of us had our religion shoved down our throat.

[an]

Also by the way.

There are some who go to church or chose that specific religion is because of the wonderful priests who help us understand it rather then hand us a verse and expect us to understand it.

Priests that understand the changing times and help us see the good and bad and the paths we can choose that we didn't know we had is the reason religion we decide to choose.

I have seen many american churchs lose parshioners due to there religious figures and how they chose to portray the religion.

Regurtating the bible it self is not enough these days. *As i can see from many who post here who like to just regurgtated it. *What good is it to repeat something verbatum and not use it in real life or to be able to see how it effects us in real life or how its to help guide us.

[rudy]

Also by the way.

There are some who go to church or chose that specific religion is because of the wonderful priests who help us understand it rather then hand us a verse and expect us to understand it.

Priests that understand the changing times and help us see the good and bad and the paths we can choose that we didn't know we had is the reason religion we decide to choose.

I have seen many american churchs lose parshioners due to there religious figures and how they chose to portray the religion.

Regurtating the bible it self is not enough these days. *As i can see from many who post here who like to just regurgtated it. *What good is it to repeat something verbatum and not use it in real life or to be able to see how it effects us in real life or how its to help guide us.Hey an you said the bible is not enough. I can’t believe someone who would consider themselves a Christian would say such a thing. I know for a fact you don’t read and study it because you would have not made the comment you did. But I challenge you to try to find something in our world today that the Bible doesn’t talk about. For thousands of years there have been millions of our brothers and sister in the Lord who have been tortured, Rape, kidnapped and murdered for the words that our blessed Holy book says. And you come along and say “it’s not enough”. I’m not attacking you but I’m very passionate about the Word of God (Bible). I’m sorry I have got off of the subject so if anyone of you would like to discuss this please pm me. Thank you and God bless.

[missbaghdad]

And for some of us who spent years and years working or not going with the family to church and when we finally "grew up" we turned to the church our own. *So not all of us had our religion shoved down our throat.

Very true... I go to church by myself. Sometimes it's a challenge but I try to make myself do it

[an]

Also by the way.

There are some who go to church or chose that specific religion is because of the wonderful priests who help us understand it rather then hand us a verse and expect us to understand it.

Priests that understand the changing times and help us see the good and bad and the paths we can choose that we didn't know we had is the reason religion we decide to choose.

I have seen many american churchs lose parshioners due to there religious figures and how they chose to portray the religion.

Regurtating the bible it self is not enough these days. *As i can see from many who post here who like to just regurgtated it. *What good is it to repeat something verbatum and not use it in real life or to be able to see how it effects us in real life or how its to help guide us.Hey an you said the bible is not enough. I can’t believe someone who would consider themselves a Christian would say such a thing. I know for a fact you don’t read and study it because you would have not made the comment you did. But I challenge you to try to find something in our world today that the Bible doesn’t talk about. For thousands of years there have been millions of our brothers and sister in the Lord who have been tortured, Rape, kidnapped and murdered for the words that our blessed Holy book says. And you come along and say “it’s not enough”. I’m not attacking you but I’m very passionate about the Word of God (Bible). I’m sorry I have got off of the subject so if anyone of you would like to discuss this please pm me. Thank you and God bless.


Rudy open your eyes. *Do you know how many of our chaldean women don't go to church??? Yet they insist on going on those oh so famous religious trips carrying there bibles around. *If they really want to preseve our religion and our culture they would support our churchs and show up on sunday and partake in all the religious events rather then ridicule the aboona! *They should be ashamed when someone tries to helps our culture and religion and yet they argue on against him.

By the way rudy don't assume you are the only one carrying your bible around with you there is also our religious figures we need to take into consideration. *

A true devoute christian knows that partaking in one religious event doesn't make you a better christian but a well rounded one at that.

oh and rudy you didn't even make comment on the other issues i addressed in this post.

You as a religious person should not be making judgement on others as you so just did saying i don't read the bible. *I read it and dont' need to flaunt the quotes to prove it. *My way of life shows it!!!!!

[ojeen1981]

When you try to talk about a faith, you have to have some ground to base your theology on, and Rudy, I think, does an excellent job of stating his argument and using the Bible to back everything he says. *Because Rudy is showing me a logical way to see his points, I can not help but agree with everything he said. *I went and looked up what he posted and its right. *
As far as merry, I personally love and respect merry, but I also know why her significance, just like the other saints, is held high sometimes (even more than Jesus who died on the cross and who is Lord). *When the Roman Empire finally became a “Christian ‘state’” with Emperor Constantan, their were many factions within the empire that hated this conversion. *Those factions were pagan people who conformed to the old mythological religious faith. *In their mythology they always embraced a goddess; most prominently a goddess of fertility and they also had many gods they worshiped. *To lighten up this faction and to help their conversion to Christianity, the Catholic Church began to integrate the pagan “culture” to their “theology”. *And so this integration helped those pagans convert. *

Another important thing is this, St. Augustine, who is my favorite theologian, was a catholic bishop, his teachings is what the Catholic Church was founded on. *The sad thing is that today the Catholic Church does the exact opposite of his teachings. *PEACE

[Samuel]

Priests that understand the changing times and help us see the good and bad and the paths we can choose that we didn't know we had is the reason religion we decide to choose.


You ALMOST had me, up until this point (actually you didn't, i'm just trying to make you feel good about yourself). *So the religion you fell back on was Catholicism. *The one you started with (what a coincidence!). *And the thing that captivated you to do so, was a Priest and not the faith itself. *So if you were originally Jewish, you'd go through the same "Stage" of "disobedience," then inevitably meet the Rabbi (Rabbi's are generally 1000x more *open minded than Catholic priests btw), that "understands the changing times" and would be compelled to practice Judaism as a result of one man's influence. *

Now go ahead and lookup a "lemming."

[sammiedebull]

you cannot take scripture literally, specially religious scripture because times change and you have to adjust to different scenarios in society. If everyone were to follow the scritpures literall, man kind would not survive.

[sammiedebull]

by the way, samd, are you an athiest or agnostic?

[an]

Priests that understand the changing times and help us see the good and bad and the paths we can choose that we didn't know we had is the reason religion we decide to choose.


You ALMOST had me, up until this point (actually you didn't, i'm just trying to make you feel good about yourself). *So the religion you fell back on was Catholicism. *The one you started with (what a coincidence!). *And the thing that captivated you to do so, was a Priest and not the faith itself. *So if you were originally Jewish, you'd go through the same "Stage" of "disobedience," then inevitably meet the Rabbi (Rabbi's are generally 1000x more *open minded than Catholic priests btw), that "understands the changing times" and would be compelled to practice Judaism as a result of one man's influence. *

Now go ahead and lookup a "lemming."


For starters someone off the street "begger" isn't going to teach you about religion. *So the "RELIGIOUS" figure is the one who is going to tell you like it is. *Anyone can read the bible and say yeah i read it. *Can you live like it said and are you truly living its code.

Open minded has nothing to do with religion as you think samd. *Our catholic priest will tell you that they would much rather have our childern here become priests rather then bring one from overseas who doesn't understand our ways here.


Yes samd a religous figure that listens to his parshioners is the one that has every sunday mass full to its capacity if not more.

Oh and SAMD enlighted us with what your religion is?

Once again why do you act as though your thoughts are better then everybody elses???

[missbaghdad]

One thought I have always struggled with is the literal interpretation of the Bible.

I have worked as an Arabic to English translator several times. I know how one word from Arabic to English can have 6 or 7 meanings. So therefore, the ultimate translation rests on me, and exactly which word I choose to use.

So seeing that the Bible was not originally written in English, I know sometimes not to take it 100% literally.

I asked my Priest about this and he said it's a very valid question and that is why we have Priests so they can help us interpret the Bible.

[Samuel]

For starters someone off the street "begger" isn't going to teach you about religion. *So the "RELIGIOUS" figure is the one who is going to tell you like it is. *Anyone can read the bible and say yeah i read it. *Can you live like it said and are you truly living its code.

Let's go back to my original argument. *What other religions have you extensively researched?


Once again why do you act as though your thoughts are better then everybody elses???

Because I put in the extra effort to make sense. *You should try that sometime.

[rudy]

Also by the way.

There are some who go to church or chose that specific religion is because of the wonderful priests who help us understand it rather then hand us a verse and expect us to understand it.

Priests that understand the changing times and help us see the good and bad and the paths we can choose that we didn't know we had is the reason religion we decide to choose.

I have seen many american churchs lose parshioners due to there religious figures and how they chose to portray the religion.

Regurtating the bible it self is not enough these days. *As i can see from many who post here who like to just regurgtated it. *What good is it to repeat something verbatum and not use it in real life or to be able to see how it effects us in real life or how its to help guide us.Hey an you said the bible is not enough. I can’t believe someone who would consider themselves a Christian would say such a thing. I know for a fact you don’t read and study it because you would have not made the comment you did. But I challenge you to try to find something in our world today that the Bible doesn’t talk about. For thousands of years there have been millions of our brothers and sister in the Lord who have been tortured, Rape, kidnapped and murdered for the words that our blessed Holy book says. And you come along and say “it’s not enough”. I’m not attacking you but I’m very passionate about the Word of God (Bible). I’m sorry I have got off of the subject so if anyone of you would like to discuss this please pm me. Thank you and God bless.


Rudy open your eyes. *Do you know how many of our chaldean women don't go to church??? Yet they insist on going on those oh so famous religious trips carrying there bibles around. *If they really want to preseve our religion and our culture they would support our churchs and show up on sunday and partake in all the religious events rather then ridicule the aboona! *They should be ashamed when someone tries to helps our culture and religion and yet they argue on against him.

By the way rudy don't assume you are the only one carrying your bible around with you there is also our religious figures we need to take into consideration. *

A true devoute christian knows that partaking in one religious event doesn't make you a better christian but a well rounded one at that.

oh and rudy you didn't even make comment on the other issues i addressed in this post.

You as a religious person should not be making judgement on others as you so just did saying i don't read the bible. *I read it and dont' need to flaunt the quotes to prove it. *My way of life shows it!!!!!I don’t think you are reading what I’m posting. Please go back and reread it. I don’t care what Chaldean woman or men or any church leaders (your church or MINE) say or do. Please back up what you are saying. Is that too much for me to ask? I simple answering YOUR questions and you are getting upset!! If you don’t like what I’m saying stop asking me than! But I’m going to ask you this can you give me a definition of “A Church”? What is a church? Again don’t just use philosophical question and/or answers back up what you are saying! Give me something, anything that will support what you are saying. Thank you and God Bless.

[rudy]

im sry come again, r u trying to tell me that my faith in god is just merely a figment of my imagination because it is wat was influenced around me growing up because of my parents *:think:


If you were born Jewish, you would expect your husband to be Jewish. *It isn't about the Bible. *It isn't about Jesus. *It's a feigned devotion to Catholicism. *It's about YOU.Samd I understand what you are trying to say and I agree with you. I think most people today who claim to be “Christian” say they are because mom or dad or jedoo or nana is so “I am too”. Witch is wrong. To understand what a Christian is you must use the Bible. Because we would not have Christianity with out it. The bible says you become a Christian when you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord. That’s when you become a Christian. Being born to Christian parents doesn’t make you one. So I agree with you. God Bless

[rudy]

Rudy...the official catholic church teaching on praying to mary and the saints is that it is WRONG!!! *The prayers we say are asking them to intercede on our behalf...please show me any words in the hail mary that elevate her to the level of god..."holy mary mother of god, PRAY FOR US SINNERS" we are asking her to pray for us...I agree that many catholics might not realize this...but the bottom line is the church teaching is that we do not pray TO mary and the saints but merely ask them to intercede on our behalf.Proudchaldean I believe that yes it is wrong to direct your prayers to anyone or anything else other than God. None of the saints can go to God for us. Again just give me one verse in the Bible that says this! But here are a couple of verses I would like for you to explain to me. Jesus says in John 14:6 I AM the way the truth and the life NO MAN cometh unto the Father, but by Me. Also read *1 timothy 2:5 ONE mediator between God and men, the man CHRIST JESUS. You also asked me if there is anything wrong with the words in the prayers to Mary. Here are a few “hail Mary full of grace”. Grace? *What grace only God can give us Grace. Here is another one “holy Mary”. Mary is blessed! Amen to that, but only God is Holy no one else. The Bible says for ALL HAVE SINNED and come short of the glory of God *Romans 3:23 also see Romans 3:10. Thank you and God Bless.

[Teffo]

im sry come again, r u trying to tell me that my faith in god is just merely a figment of my imagination because it is wat was influenced around me growing up because of my parents *:think:


If you were born Jewish, you would expect your husband to be Jewish. *It isn't about the Bible. *It isn't about Jesus. *It's a feigned devotion to Catholicism. *It's about YOU.

technically everyone is born jewish if u want to look at it that way....you become a christian when you accept baptism...

and for whoever said that comment about being roman catholic...chaldeans are not roman catholic we have our own rite..."chaldean Catholic"

and why is everyone going after rudy...? *why bc he chose a different ssec of christianity...just be thankful he still believes in jesus christ...like most ppl in the u.s. who have become athiests or whatever else

[Samuel]

im sry come again, r u trying to tell me that my faith in god is just merely a figment of my imagination because it is wat was influenced around me growing up because of my parents *:think:


If you were born Jewish, you would expect your husband to be Jewish. *It isn't about the Bible. *It isn't about Jesus. *It's a feigned devotion to Catholicism. *It's about YOU.

technically everyone is born jewish if u want to look at it that way....you become a christian when you accept baptism...


Technically you're wrong. *I wasn't born Jewish. *According to your RELIGIOUS belief I was. *But of course, biology proves it wrong. *You could genetically prove whether a person is Jewish or not.

[UmiSayz]

Everyone was born jewish? Thats news to me...

[Samuel]

Everyone was born jewish? Thats news to me...

Religious people. *They hear something a senile priest tells them. *And take it literally.

[Teffo]

im sry come again, r u trying to tell me that my faith in god is just merely a figment of my imagination because it is wat was influenced around me growing up because of my parents *:think:


If you were born Jewish, you would expect your husband to be Jewish. *It isn't about the Bible. *It isn't about Jesus. *It's a feigned devotion to Catholicism. *It's about YOU.

technically everyone is born jewish if u want to look at it that way....you become a christian when you accept baptism...


Technically you're wrong. *I wasn't born Jewish. *According to your RELIGIOUS belief I was. *But of course, biology proves it wrong. *You could genetically prove whether a person is Jewish or not.

hey tard :love: * i didn't say it wasn't from a religous point! *you and you're damn science! *oh and also...never said i bought it ;)

[Samuel]

im sry come again, r u trying to tell me that my faith in god is just merely a figment of my imagination because it is wat was influenced around me growing up because of my parents *:think:


If you were born Jewish, you would expect your husband to be Jewish. *It isn't about the Bible. *It isn't about Jesus. *It's a feigned devotion to Catholicism. *It's about YOU.

technically everyone is born jewish if u want to look at it that way....you become a christian when you accept baptism...


Technically you're wrong. *I wasn't born Jewish. *According to your RELIGIOUS belief I was. *But of course, biology proves it wrong. *You could genetically prove whether a person is Jewish or not.

hey tard :love: * i didn't say it wasn't from a religous point! *you and you're damn science! *oh and also...never said i bought it ;)

So you get to pick and choose what your religious authorities preach? *Interesting. *So if one of the things they say is as ludicrous as "we're all born Jewish," how much credibility do they have left when they say "you're eating God right now..!"

[Teffo]

what on God's green Earth are you talking about!?

[ojeen1981]

teffo, we are not born jewish....to be jewish is to have an identity reinforced from 3 different ways, religion, ethnicty and land...all those 3 factors reinforce the jewish identity...much thanks..peace

[Teffo]

Again Read What I Wrote Thankissss You

[JerkFace]

mmmm i love peaches :jive:

[rudy]

you cannot take scripture literally, specially religious scripture because times change and you have to adjust to different scenarios in society. If everyone were to follow the scritpures literall, man kind would not survive. sammie the Bible says that God is the same Yesterday, today and tomorrow. I challenge you to look up any subject that we deal with today and I promise you will find the Bible has something to say about it. God Bless.

[UmiSayz]

sammie the Bible says that God is the same Yesterday, today and tomorrow.




Sammie wasn't talkin about God. He was talkin about the ppl i believe.

[an]

Also by the way.

There are some who go to church or chose that specific religion is because of the wonderful priests who help us understand it rather then hand us a verse and expect us to understand it.

Priests that understand the changing times and help us see the good and bad and the paths we can choose that we didn't know we had is the reason religion we decide to choose.

I have seen many american churchs lose parshioners due to there religious figures and how they chose to portray the religion.

Regurtating the bible it self is not enough these days. *As i can see from many who post here who like to just regurgtated it. *What good is it to repeat something verbatum and not use it in real life or to be able to see how it effects us in real life or how its to help guide us.Hey an you said the bible is not enough. I can’t believe someone who would consider themselves a Christian would say such a thing. I know for a fact you don’t read and study it because you would have not made the comment you did. But I challenge you to try to find something in our world today that the Bible doesn’t talk about. For thousands of years there have been millions of our brothers and sister in the Lord who have been tortured, Rape, kidnapped and murdered for the words that our blessed Holy book says. And you come along and say “it’s not enough”. I’m not attacking you but I’m very passionate about the Word of God (Bible). I’m sorry I have got off of the subject so if anyone of you would like to discuss this please pm me. Thank you and God bless.


Rudy open your eyes. *Do you know how many of our chaldean women don't go to church??? Yet they insist on going on those oh so famous religious trips carrying there bibles around. *If they really want to preseve our religion and our culture they would support our churchs and show up on sunday and partake in all the religious events rather then ridicule the aboona! *They should be ashamed when someone tries to helps our culture and religion and yet they argue on against him.

By the way rudy don't assume you are the only one carrying your bible around with you there is also our religious figures we need to take into consideration. *

A true devoute christian knows that partaking in one religious event doesn't make you a better christian but a well rounded one at that.

oh and rudy you didn't even make comment on the other issues i addressed in this post.

You as a religious person should not be making judgement on others as you so just did saying i don't read the bible. *I read it and dont' need to flaunt the quotes to prove it. *My way of life shows it!!!!!I don’t think you are reading what I’m posting. Please go back and reread it. I don’t care what Chaldean woman or men or any church leaders (your church or MINE) say or do. Please back up what you are saying. Is that too much for me to ask? I simple answering YOUR questions and you are getting upset!! If you don’t like what I’m saying stop asking me than! But I’m going to ask you this can you give me a definition of “A Church”? What is a church? Again don’t just use philosophical question and/or answers back up what you are saying! Give me something, anything that will support what you are saying. Thank you and God Bless.

So a church losing there parishioners doesn't mean the religion is losing them as well?

[an]

One thought I have always struggled with is the literal interpretation of the Bible.

I have worked as an Arabic to English translator several times. I know how one word from Arabic to English can have 6 or 7 meanings. So therefore, the ultimate translation rests on me, and exactly which word I choose to use.

So seeing that the Bible was not originally written in English, I know sometimes not to take it 100% literally.

I asked my Priest about this and he said it's a very valid question and that is why we have Priests so they can help us interpret the Bible.


I have to agree with missbaghdad.

[sammiedebull]

people change, society changes, the world changes, does this mean that values and religion belief should change? NO. But it does mean that you need to adjust and look at things differently.

[rudy]

people change, society changes, the world changes, does this mean that values and religion belief should change? NO. But it does mean that you need to adjust and look at things differently. I can agree with that sammie. But as for me I don't base what or how I believe on people, society or, the world for that matter. there are issues out there that are socially acceptable but are morale wrong. As for me its scripture ALONE! *God BLess.

[an]

people change, society changes, the world changes, does this mean that values and religion belief should change? NO. But it does mean that you need to adjust and look at things differently. I can agree with that sammie. But as for me I don't base what or how I believe on people, society or, the world for that matter. there are issues out there that are socially acceptable but are morale wrong. As for me its scripture ALONE! *God BLess.


So do you believe there are morals and scriptures that go hand in hand? bascially some things people do in life should be condemed.

[rudy]

people change, society changes, the world changes, does this mean that values and religion belief should change? NO. But it does mean that you need to adjust and look at things differently. I can agree with that sammie. But as for me I don't base what or how I believe on people, society or, the world for that matter. there are issues out there that are socially acceptable but are morale wrong. As for me its scripture ALONE! *God BLess.


So do you believe there are morals and scriptures that go hand in hand? bascially some things people do in life should be condemed.Absolutely morals and scripture do go hand in hand. Let me put it to you this way, with out scripture we would not know what is morally right or wrong. I think we should speak up when something is morally wrong. Because God will judge immorality. But I don’t condemn any one. Only God himself will be doing the condemning. God bless

[tmsocha]

Sorry about any Hijackings of the thread. *I found this topic while surfing, any *comments?

THE QUESTION:
R120: Why do white teen girls seem to prefer Chaldean boys?
Charles W., 17, Stamford, CT


ANSWER 1:
I used to work with a Chaldean woman. According to her, many Chaldean men are supposed to give their bride-to-be a platter of gold on their wedding day. Also, they tend to spend quite a large amount of money on their women. Being a white female, like many other white females, money is important. I think they like the attention and money being spent on them.
POSTED APRIL 3, 1998
Jessica, 21, white, Orion , MI

[SamIAM™]

lol, i that sound made up

[sammiedebull]

rudy, so the bible, qaran and torrah all say that their religion is right and everyone else is wrong and that anyone who threatens their religions should be killed off, if you take things literally, the human race cannot survive!

[rudy]

rudy, so the bible, qaran and torrah all say that their religion is right and everyone else is wrong and that anyone who threatens their religions should be killed off, if you take things literally, the human race cannot survive! i'm not going to speak for the Koran or the Torah. but can u show me where in the Bible it says to kill anyone who threatens my realigon? let me save you some, time its not there. but it does tell me to love and feed my enemy and pray for those who persecute me. I will say this Jesus himself said these words in Matthew chapter 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. also remember our Saviours dieing words while he was on the cross. he Said Father forgive them for they know not what they do. he was refereing to the same people who were killing him. God Bless.

[sammiedebull]

All religious books have things in there that simple wont hold in the current social and econimcal structure we have today, its just not possible, the key is for one to basically adjust himself and to the changing world.

AGAIN, ANY BOOK or SCRIPTURE relating to scripture have things in there relating to killings, to helping others, etc.

come on, if you take any religious scripture, they reference to many things which are about war, killings, etc, below is a list, knock yourself out :

"Note: In the Bible and other religious scriptures, words having to do with killing significantly outnumber words having to do with love."

its all about wars, battles, how the religion formed, etc, you simply cant take it literally!

Look below, its just a simple list compiled, it says to kill gays, shall you kill them than? same in the Quran, if they find you bieng gay, you are taken to the tallest building and thrown off, do you accept this? i dont. i do not accept their life style, but what gives me a right to follow it "literally" and do that?

1) Capital Punishment Crimes according to the bible:

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

* *Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. *Such evil must be purged from Israel. *(Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches

* *You should not let a sorceress live. *(Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals

* *"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." *(Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers

* *A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. *(Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad

* *Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. *(Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

* *1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. *(Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

* *2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. *They are guilty of a capital offense. *(Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

* *If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. *(Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



Death for Fornication

* *A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. *(Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



Death to Followers of Other Religions

* *Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. *(Exodus 22:19 NAB)



Kill Nonbelievers

* *They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. *(2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



Kill False Prophets

* *If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." *When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. *(Zechariah 13:3 NAB)



Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

* *Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. *In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. *If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. *Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. *Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. *That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. *Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. *Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. *He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. *"The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." *(Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)



Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

* *But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. *Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. *(Deuteronomy *22:20-21 NAB)



Kill Followers of Other Religions.

* *1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. *Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. *You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. *And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. *(Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



* *2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. *When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. *(Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)



Death for Blasphemy

* *One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. *During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. *So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. *His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. *They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. *Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. *Then let the entire community stone him to death. *Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. *Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. *Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. *(Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)



Kill False Prophets

* *1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, *and the predicted signs or miracles take place. *If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. *The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. *Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. *Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. *The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. *Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. *(Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)



* *2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' *You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' *If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. *That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. *(Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)



Infidels and Gays Should Die

* *So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. *As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. *Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. *So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. *Amen. *That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. *Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. *And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. *Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. *When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. *Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. *They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. *They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. *They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. *They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. *And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. *(Romans 1:24-32 NLT)



Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

* *For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. *You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. *They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. *Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. *Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' *(Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)



Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

* *The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. *It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. *Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. *Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. *Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. *I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' *(Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

[UmiSayz]

Damn Sammie i can't believe you bought that up LoL

[sammiedebull]

You should never take anything at face value, look it up, think about it, challenge it, at the end of the day if its the right way you will know deep inside.

[Samuel]

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night


^!!! ya!! *According to the bible. *God is sexist.

[Samuel]

"baaaaaaaaaaaaa ...


... baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"


Behold the TRUE lamb of God.....The Religous. *Embrace their stupidity, dear lord. *For they strive desperately to contrive justifications for your "uninsightful" liturgy. *Oh, but don't get me wrong. *Not because they care about you. *But because they are moral cowards. *They really can't confront a world without blissful ignorance/idealism. *Without a conception of a third world...an afterlife...these people can't manage to justify their own existence. *Behold your true sheep, lord. *They have sacrificed the most for you. *Their intelligence and their credibility.

[rudy]

If I was to even begin to try to tell you how many verses you took out of contents and gave a wrong interpretation I’d be typing all night. So I’m going to try to explain it with an easy to understand definition. This is not a new topic. Atheist and agnostics have been using this argument for years. And it has got them nowhere. I’m saddened to see believers trying to use it also. Ok first of all you need to understand what you are reading and look at who is writing what you are reading and to whom the book you are reading is directed to. The verses you chose to post are from our Old testaments and are from the books of Pentateuch also known as the Mosaic Laws. To the Jews they are known as the Torah.
1st Genesis was written to furnish an account of the Beginning of all things-of the universe. And to show the origin of the NATION of Israel (keep this in mind).
2nd Exodus was written during the wilderness wanderings it covers about 215 years. It also shows how God’s promise to Abraham was fulfilled. Also the laws were given to the Nation of Israel at mt. sini.
3rd Leviticus was written to show how God would fulfill His promise of exodus, to instruct ISRAEL in the holy life which God expect of those who are His. Also to provide prophetic illustrations of the coming Savior and the work he would accomplish.
4th Numbers was written to record something of the 40 years wilderness wanderings of Israel brought on by their unbelief.
5th Deuteronomy was written to instruct the people and urge them to be faithful to their covenant with God.
I gave you just a brief definition of the books of Pentateuch. Because that is where you went to get the verses you did. Read what I put very carefully do you see what is going on here? Understand that during those times there were all types of sexual immorality and many other horrible sins that were going on (too many to list). God is a holy and pure God. And he hates sin!! He gave to the Nation of Israel these laws to govern the people by. Not for an individual to take into his own hand. They were laws for the Nation. Not for me and you. God is just that GOD. You and I have no ground to tell Him what is right or wrong. Yes sometimes He told the nation of Israel do to something that we may not like today. But our mind is not designed to be able to comprehend what God’s intentions are. Look if someone goes out and kills or hurts; let’s say a homosexual or a witch than that is also a SIN. But you need to understand in those time the people were out of control and God gave the right to the Nation of Israel to bring order to an unstable world. Thank you and God Bless.

[Samuel]

If I was to even begin to try to tell you how many verses you took out of contents and gave a wrong interpretation I’d be typing all night. So I’m going to try to explain it with an easy to understand definition. This is not a new topic. Atheist and agnostics have been using this argument for years. And it has got them nowhere. I’m saddened to see believers trying to use it also. Ok first of all you need to understand what you are reading and look at who is writing what you are reading and to whom the book you are reading is directed to. The verses you chose to post are from our Old testaments and are from the books of Pentateuch also known as the Mosaic Laws. To the Jews they are known as the Torah.
1st Genesis was written to furnish an account of the Beginning of all things-of the universe. And to show the origin of the NATION of Israel (keep this in mind).
2nd Exodus was written during the wilderness wanderings it covers about 215 years. It also shows how God’s promise to Abraham was fulfilled. Also the laws were given to the Nation of Israel at mt. sini.
3rd Leviticus was written to show how God would fulfill His promise of exodus, to instruct ISRAEL in the holy life which God expect of those who are His. Also to provide prophetic illustrations of the coming Savior and the work he would accomplish.
4th Numbers was written to record something of the 40 years wilderness wanderings of Israel brought on by their unbelief.
5th Deuteronomy was written to instruct the people and urge them to be faithful to their covenant with God.
I gave you just a brief definition of the books of Pentateuch. Because that is where you went to get the verses you did. Read what I put very carefully do you see what is going on here? Understand that during those times there were all types of sexual immorality and many other horrible sins that were going on (too many to list). God is a holy and pure God. And he hates sin!! He gave to the Nation of Israel these laws to govern the people by. Not for an individual to take into his own hand. They were laws for the Nation. Not for me and you. God is just that GOD. You and I have no ground to tell Him what is right or wrong. Yes sometimes He told the nation of Israel do to something that we may not like today. But our mind is not designed to be able to comprehend what God’s intentions are. Look if someone goes out and kills or hurts; let’s say a homosexual or a witch than that is also a SIN. But you need to understand in those time the people were out of control and God gave the right to the Nation of Israel to bring order to an unstable world. Thank you and God Bless.


Again. *I respect your knowledge. *However, I find your application of it pointless. *As always -- you list a random quote from the bible, and expect us to buy it.. *Your logic (as many of the philosophers here would realize) is circular. *In order to believe your conclusion, we'd have to assume that your premise (God influenced the bible) was in fact correct (which would beg the question... what if the bible was in fact written by some random bum -- it would then make the premises to your conclusion deceptive). *Defining the era of the books doesn't excuse God's teachings either. *Punishment by death for hitting dad doesn't seem like scripture from a God of love. That's a God with one hell of a short fuse.

[CHALDEANELVIS]

I agree with Rudy. Sammie, have you heard of a man named Dr. Walter Martin? Well, he had a debate that turned the atheist world upside down. He debated atheist top scholar/leader Murray 'O Hair. Every topic an atheist would bring up to try and refute creationism or the sufficiency of scripture, was brought up. Let's just say God was with Dr Walter Martin 100% *:applause: There isn't a person that could listen to that very long debate and still be an atheist (in my opinion). Sammie, I have to assume that you don't believe in God or creationism. I ask that you or your best scholar get in contact with a man named Ken Hovind. Ken has been offering $250,000 to the person that can prove God doesn't exist! He's been offering this for many, many years now. Let me give you a hint, he still has the money! As far as people trying, you can easily purchase debates on video or audio. It's amazing how God did not leave us in darkness for the average atheist or skeptics to rise up and say "There is no God" but rather "There is no atheist" It takes a lot of work, stress, and deep commitment to be an atheist because of how much proof this world has to offer that there is a God. If you are interested, I'd be more than happy to refer you to websites that prove Christ existence and prove creationism. Sammie, I hate to say, but there is just way too much evidence the Christian has to offer as opposed to the atheist. Again, check out the Walter Martin debate. And if you do, I'll tell you what Murray 'O Hair did later after the debate, it will shock you! Well Sammie, I hope I wasn't mean or anything, but this is God's infallibility we're talking here. Until next post.

[CHALDEANELVIS]

Oh and another thing Sammie, you said:
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *"You should never take anything at face value, look it up, think about it, challenge it, at the end of the day if its the right way you will know deep inside."

I agree with you 100% and by the scriptural references you brought up, I'd say you have not done any of your homework. I've seen atheist come up with much better Bible refutes than that. If you are going to base your beliefs in what you quoted, then you have much more homework to do. If you'd like, we can even chat about your friend Darwin. I think you'd be extemely upset about his fatal flaws. To believe the world was created out of nothing makes no sense. Since when did nothing just create into something without an action? How can us humans come from a single cell bacteria and yet have so many cells that have cells within themselves that are dependent on each individual ones, that if even one should die, that whole cell dies. But we are to believe we came from one single cell? Wheres the proof? Again, Im speaking as if you are an atheist, I apologize if you are somehow not. Until next post

[rudy]

If I was to even begin to try to tell you how many verses you took out of contents and gave a wrong interpretation I’d be typing all night. So I’m going to try to explain it with an easy to understand definition. This is not a new topic. Atheist and agnostics have been using this argument for years. And it has got them nowhere. I’m saddened to see believers trying to use it also. Ok first of all you need to understand what you are reading and look at who is writing what you are reading and to whom the book you are reading is directed to. The verses you chose to post are from our Old testaments and are from the books of Pentateuch also known as the Mosaic Laws. To the Jews they are known as the Torah.
1st Genesis was written to furnish an account of the Beginning of all things-of the universe. And to show the origin of the NATION of Israel (keep this in mind).
2nd Exodus was written during the wilderness wanderings it covers about 215 years. It also shows how God’s promise to Abraham was fulfilled. Also the laws were given to the Nation of Israel at mt. sini.
3rd Leviticus was written to show how God would fulfill His promise of exodus, to instruct ISRAEL in the holy life which God expect of those who are His. Also to provide prophetic illustrations of the coming Savior and the work he would accomplish.
4th Numbers was written to record something of the 40 years wilderness wanderings of Israel brought on by their unbelief.
5th Deuteronomy was written to instruct the people and urge them to be faithful to their covenant with God.
I gave you just a brief definition of the books of Pentateuch. Because that is where you went to get the verses you did. Read what I put very carefully do you see what is going on here? Understand that during those times there were all types of sexual immorality and many other horrible sins that were going on (too many to list). God is a holy and pure God. And he hates sin!! He gave to the Nation of Israel these laws to govern the people by. Not for an individual to take into his own hand. They were laws for the Nation. Not for me and you. God is just that GOD. You and I have no ground to tell Him what is right or wrong. Yes sometimes He told the nation of Israel do to something that we may not like today. But our mind is not designed to be able to comprehend what God’s intentions are. Look if someone goes out and kills or hurts; let’s say a homosexual or a witch than that is also a SIN. But you need to understand in those time the people were out of control and God gave the right to the Nation of Israel to bring order to an unstable world. Thank you and God Bless.


Again. *I respect your knowledge. *However, I find your application of it pointless. *As always -- you list a random quote from the bible, and expect us to buy it.. *Your logic (as many of the philosophers here would realize) is circular. *In order to believe your conclusion, we'd have to assume that your premise (God influenced the bible) was in fact correct (which would beg the question... what if the bible was in fact written by some random bum -- it would then make the premises to your conclusion deceptive). *Defining the era of the books doesn't excuse God's teachings either. *Punishment by death for hitting dad doesn't seem like scripture from a God of love. That's a God with one hell of a short fuse.Ok I’m going to say this. You base what is your view of the bible on “What if”. Why don’t you get into the Word of God and put it to the test for yourself? Yes, maybe I should not give you any verse because the difference between you and me is our foundation (mine is the Holy Bible). You tell me how “I use random quote from the bible and expect you to buy it”. I don’t expect you to buy it. I pray that you do. But you were posting verses and than telling me “how can a God of love allow this” and than say “what if some random bum wrote it” now you tell me who is using circular reasoning? Yes God is a God of love but he is also the Judge, Jury and, executioner all in one package. *Thank you and God bless.

[Samuel]

Ok I’m going to say this. You base what is your view of the bible on “What if”. Why don’t you get into the Word of God and put it to the test for yourself? Yes, maybe I should not give you any verse because the difference between you and me is our foundation (mine is the Holy Bible). You tell me how “I use random quote from the bible and expect you to buy it”. I don’t expect you to buy it. I pray that you do. But you were posting verses and than telling me “how can a God of love allow this” and than say “what if some random bum wrote it” now you tell me who is using circular reasoning? Yes God is a God of love but he is also the Judge, Jury and, executioner all in one package. *Thank you and God bless.

What would compel me to believe in the bible?

[rudy]

Ok I’m going to say this. You base what is your view of the bible on “What if”. Why don’t you get into the Word of God and put it to the test for yourself? Yes, maybe I should not give you any verse because the difference between you and me is our foundation (mine is the Holy Bible). You tell me how “I use random quote from the bible and expect you to buy it”. I don’t expect you to buy it. I pray that you do. But you were posting verses and than telling me “how can a God of love allow this” and than say “what if some random bum wrote it” now you tell me who is using circular reasoning? Yes God is a God of love but he is also the Judge, Jury and, executioner all in one package. *Thank you and God bless.

What would compel me to believe in the bible? try reading and studying it you will be amazed. God Bless

[Samuel]

Ok I’m going to say this. You base what is your view of the bible on “What if”. Why don’t you get into the Word of God and put it to the test for yourself? Yes, maybe I should not give you any verse because the difference between you and me is our foundation (mine is the Holy Bible). You tell me how “I use random quote from the bible and expect you to buy it”. I don’t expect you to buy it. I pray that you do. But you were posting verses and than telling me “how can a God of love allow this” and than say “what if some random bum wrote it” now you tell me who is using circular reasoning? Yes God is a God of love but he is also the Judge, Jury and, executioner all in one package. *Thank you and God bless.

What would compel me to believe in the bible? try reading and studding it you will be amazed. God Bless

So if shakespeare were to invent a Holy Book, i should follow his preachings because he's proficient?

[UmiSayz]

Sammie, I have to assume that you don't believe in God or creationism.



Ok just because he quoted some verses of the Bible just to prove Rudy that Bible does preach violence that does not mean hes an athiest? Dont assume anything or anyone you dont know nothing about. He showed no signs of being an athiest.

[CHALDEANELVIS]

Sammie, I have to assume that you don't believe in God or creationism.



Ok just because he quoted some verses of the Bible just to prove Rudy that Bible does preach violence that does not mean hes an athiest? Dont assume anything or anyone you dont know nothing about. He showed no signs of being an athiest.

"He showed no sign of being an atheist" Then let me ask you, what is an atheist? Maybe he was showing sign of nosticism. And thank you for misquoting me. I said:
"Again, Im speaking as if you are an atheist, I apologize if you are somehow not"

Please, read the context. And you said "He was just trying to prove the Bible preached violence? Is that ALL he implied? If so, why? If you re read the first few paragraphs he wrote, he was denouncing the Bibles credibility.

Of all that I have said on this board, this is the only thing you can comment on? What about the extreme proof I am willing to give you or your buddy that athiesm does not hold? It never has, it never will. The best atheist debater would recant all his teaching against the best Christian debater. Actually, its already happened many times. A 30 year atheist scholar (I can get his name if absolutely necessary so you can check for yourself) gave up on atheism because there was just way too much evidence that God does exist. He is now a Christian preacher *:applause: . If God does exist and scripture is God breathed with absolutely no contradictions, a person who denounces the Bible has no pillar in which to stand. If Christianity was just merely a "picker upper" to set up morals, rules and regulations on ones life, how come it's held for over 2,000 years?! Don't you think of all the books written within this extremely large time frame, we would find books of Christians or letters saying "This Christianity thing just isn't working"? Instead, we find peoples entire lives changed from just reading one book in the Bible. I started reading in the New Testament and wept all through Matthew from deep conviction and fear for my soul. The reason Christianity has held up for this many years and didn't cease to just be a practice or interest followed for a time with exaggerated zeal is that you can not down play the role of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit has been moving people for over 2,000 years, converting the hearts of men. You should check out testimonies, let alone mine. I think you'd be quite intrigued. Until next post, God Bless.

[sammiedebull]

1) read my posts on different topics, i would be the last one on the board to be an athiest or agnostic :) look at other topics.

2) YOU CANNOT prove religious scripture, I kind of agree with samd on this, you believe in religion because of faith, you cannot prove the bible, the torra, the quran, evolution, you simply cant prove it, please DONT tell me you can, no one can. A person has faith in what he believes, if you could prove any religion 100%, i am pretty sure everyone would adopt that religion.

3) I think athiest and agnostics are 100% wrong for many reasons that I really do not have time to explain.

4) The reason i posted those things are because I want to show you that you can't take anything literally. For example, each religion scripture says that if you know someone is Gay, you have the right to kill them, now are you "SERIOUSLY" telling me that you will follow through with THAT?.

5) YOU SIMPLY CANNOT follow it all literally. Also some are right when they say you follow the religion because your parents shove it down your throat, you are a specific religion because you feel that the religion is what fulfills you, what you look towhen times are good and bad. When i say question your religion, I mean that you should not say your a "christain" or a "muslim" because thats a lable, you should really feel that you are part of your religion, not because you were born with it. I know many christain and muslim people who say they are a specigfic religion, but they do things which are 100% against their religion. Do people make mistakes and is God forgiving? YES, HE IS, BUT these people do the same mistake and sin over and over again. So to be a specific religion and true to yourself, you need to feel it, not just use it as a label.

6) all scripture says if you do not believe in this religion than you are an enemy of god and should be killed or you are going to hell, rudy, DO YOU TAKE THIS LITERALLY? do you think all jews and muslims are going to hell? again, you canttake everything LITERALLY!

7) CHALDEANELVIS, read previous topics before jumping to conclusion :) I guess the word "Newbie" under your name says it all, you should go back and read previous topics before you stick people in to categories.

8) NO ONE should slave them selves to the Bible or Quran or torra, you should feel it to believe it, dont simple accept everything because someone told you its right, GOD will not accept this anyway, you say you are a specific religion because you parents told you to *follow it, your parents simple introduce you to a religion and teach you *the basics, you need to take it a step further and try to follow it!

This is a huge topic, i dont have time to adhere to all the nonsense on the topic :)

[rudy]

Sammie, I have to assume that you don't believe in God or creationism.



Ok just because he quoted some verses of the Bible just to prove Rudy that Bible does preach violence that does not mean hes an athiest? Dont assume anything or anyone you dont know nothing about. He showed no signs of being an athiest. So umi do you *consider it to be violent if a group of people were inbeded in the practice of rap, incests, burning of children, killing of the poor and handicap, homosexuality, living like wild animals, ext. ext. If God himself put laws down in bring control to an unstable world, than *do consider this violence? Because that is what is going on in the verses that sammie posted. just please go back to what i posted and test it for yourself Dont take my word for it. GOd Bless

[sammiedebull]

rudy, so by your posts, you mean that the "nation" can kill gays, witches, people who work on sabbath? you see, i love all religions, all have their goods and bads. I am not fighting you on religion, that is not the point but DONT sit here and tell us that the Bible is the only right way, that the bible preeches LOVE only and nothing else.

The main aguement is that religios scripture was written a long time ago, my arguement is that you need to adapt to social change. Like you said, they were sexist back than, women did not have equal rights, etc.

Example, In the Quran it states that women can't do many things which most social ept people would think are insane, now do most muslim women in the USA adhere to this scripture? NO. times changes, does it mean they are bad people? NO, it just means that society is changing and it is OK for women to be equal, to work, to do as they please. The point is you are taking things very literally, also please dont translate the Bible to us because people have been trying to interpret things from the Bible for hundreads of years, most people/churches/sects view and interpret the Bible in a different way!

A good example is drinking, some people say its OK to drink because Jesus did so, some people think that is INSANE and that drinking a small glass of win is only acceptable in very rare and special occasions.

PLEASE DO NOT PREECH PEOPLE HERE ABOUT THE BIBLE OR QUOTE IT TO GIVE US YOUR OWN TRANSLATION OF IT. IF YOU WANT TO DO THAT AND ENJOY IT, I WOULD RECOMMEND YOU BECOME A PRIEST :)

thats all for me :)

[sammiedebull]

God did not make a perfect world rudy, what is the pooint for God to make a perfect world? would not make sense, God put everyone on earth and gave everyone a religion to follow, its your duty to test nd research your religion and than try to apply as much as possible to your daily life.

A country makes laws according to the laws which are acceptable to society, do you think that God would allow strip clubs or allow gambling? NO NO NO. Now why does a mostly christain country like the USA allow this? Is it right? NO!!! It is acceptable because society itself says so.

You are reading to much in to your readings, wayyy to much.

About the things i wrote, they are not an ATTACK or ANYTHING against a religious scripture, they are simply to show you that people look at the Bible in different ways and that you cannot take things as they are written and literally.

as i said earlier, people have been trying to interpret religion scripture for hundreads and thousands of years and we STILL dont have all the ANSWERS!

[rudy]

1) read my posts on different topics, i would be the last one on the board to be an athiest or agnostic :) look at other topics.

2) YOU CANNOT prove religious scripture, I kind of agree with samd on this, you believe in religion because of faith, you cannot prove the bible, the torra, the quran, evolution, you simply cant prove it, please DONT tell me you can, no one can. A person has faith in what he believes, if you could prove any religion 100%, i am pretty sure everyone would adopt that religion.

3) I think athiest and agnostics are 100% wrong for many reasons that I really do not have time to explain.

4) The reason i posted those things are because I want to show you that you can't take anything literally. For example, each religion scripture says that if you know someone is Gay, you have the right to kill them, now are you "SERIOUSLY" telling me that you will follow through with THAT?.

5) YOU SIMPLY CANNOT follow it all literally. Also some are right when they say you follow the religion because your parents shove it down your throat, you are a specific religion because you feel that the religion is what fulfills you, what you look towhen times are good and bad. When i say question your religion, I mean that you should not say your a "christain" or a "muslim" because thats a lable, you should really feel that you are part of your religion, not because you were born with it. I know many christain and muslim people who say they are a specigfic religion, but they do things which are 100% against their religion. Do people make mistakes and is God forgiving? YES, HE IS, BUT these people do the same mistake and sin over and over again. So to be a specific religion and true to yourself, you need to feel it, not just use it as a label.

6) all scripture says if you do not believe in this religion than you are an enemy of god and should be killed or you are going to hell, rudy, DO YOU TAKE THIS LITERALLY? do you think all jews and muslims are going to hell? again, you canttake everything LITERALLY!

7) CHALDEANELVIS, read previous topics before jumping to conclusion :) I guess the word "Newbie" under your name says it all, you should go back and read previous topics before you stick people in to categories.

8) NO ONE should slave them selves to the Bible or Quran or torra, you should feel it to believe it, dont simple accept everything because someone told you its right, GOD will not accept this anyway, you say you are a specific religion because you parents told you to *follow it, your parents simple introduce you to a religion and teach you *the basics, you need to take it a step further and try to follow it!

This is a huge topic, i dont have time to adhere to all the nonsense on the topic :) 1) sammie bro, I did read your topic.

2) Yes you are correct faith playas a big role. But scripture can and has been proven.

3) 100% agree!

4) Please go back and reread what I put. OF COURSE IT IS WRONG TO KILL A HOMOSEXUAL. But I believe if you do kill a homosexual than the laws should have your killed also!!

5) Here is what i also said " just because you are born to "christian" parents does NOT make you one!! Your faith in God's Grace does.

6) Again I speak for my Faith now. its never says in the Bible to kill someone who does not believe in this book (bible). I believe any CHRISTIAN, muslim, jew, buddest and atheist ext ext. who does not know the Lord Jesus as his personal Lord and Saviour will be cast into a lake of fire.

7) Not going to speak for chaldeanelvis

8) My parents did not give me my religion. God gave us the Bible. its up to me and you to get into it and put it to the test!

NOTE: on question #6. When I say "know Jesus as Lord and saviour" here is what I mean. God is a pure and holy God. he requires an atonement (payment) for sin. He provided that payment when He came down took on our flesh was cursed, spit upon, beaten and, nailed to a cross to suffer and die. he was a perfect man (no sin). in order to pay for sin it has to come from a source that has no sin. Thats why I say there is nothing me and you can do to save ourself we are full of sin. you cant take something full of sin and make a payment for sin. its like trying to pay a credit card with another credit card. the debt is still there. when you ask him to forgive you of your sin and to live in your heart and to be the Lord of your live the Bible says " Old thing are past away behold all thing become new". no matter how bad of a sin you think you have done God is faithful and Just he will forgive. Thats all for me too. Thank you to all of you who were being so kind and not letting this topic get out of hand. you see people can discuss realigon and still be at peace with each other we just all proved that!! Now politics That a different story. LOL Thank you and GOD BLESS

[sammiedebull]

sure, have a good week end :)

again, you say if you do not "believe in jesus as your lord and savior" than you will burn in hell, what is a muslim or jew suppose to interpret that as? this is the problem, if everyone though this way in every religion (because everyone thinks they are right of course) than human kind itself will not survive or stand.

anyway, nice topic, from the conclusion, religion is faith, do not take everything you rad in scripture literally, try to rationalize it and follow it to teh best oof your ability. Do not be nieve and think you are the only right one and that your religios scriupture is the only way to eternal life.

Have a good week end!

[CHALDEANELVIS]

2) YOU CANNOT prove religious scripture, I kind of agree with samd on this, you believe in religion because of faith, you cannot prove the bible, the torra, the quran, evolution, you simply cant prove it, please DONT tell me you can, no one can. A person has faith in what he believes, if you could prove any religion 100%, i am pretty sure everyone would adopt that religion.

Amazing, where to begin. First, the Bible can be proven, it already has. 1947 with the Dead Sea Scrolls. They matched up almost perfect with the Greek translations we have. How about books from the early Kings that ruled when Christ was alive, they were asking "Who is this Jesus guy everyone is talking about" and was inquiring about these miraculous mass healings and raising the dead to life! What about the stone found not too long ago with the inscription from Pontius Pilate? Geez, if I wasn't at work, I would type for you a 30 page paper to prove the crediblity of the Bible! I believe the Bible is the only infallible words of God. No other book was founded by God, except the Torah which is part of our Bible. Let me ask you something Sammie, where do you think you are going to go when you die? Do you believe that there is a God who will judge you? Do you believe there is a Hell for non believers? Or are you just going to come back as butterfly or something. I'm curious on your position. Thanks

[Samuel]

2) YOU CANNOT prove religious scripture, I kind of agree with samd on this, you believe in religion because of faith, you cannot prove the bible, the torra, the quran, evolution, you simply cant prove it, please DONT tell me you can, no one can. A person has faith in what he believes, if you could prove any religion 100%, i am pretty sure everyone would adopt that religion.

Amazing, where to begin. First, the Bible can be proven, it already has. 1947 with the Dead Sea Scrolls. They matched up almost perfect with the Greek translations we have. How about books from the early Kings that ruled when Christ was alive, they were asking "Who is this Jesus guy everyone is talking about" and was inquiring about these miraculous mass healings and raising the dead to life! What about the stone found not too long ago with the inscription from Pontius Pilate? Geez, if I wasn't at work, I would type for you a 30 page paper to prove the crediblity of the Bible! I believe the Bible is the only infallible words of God. No other book was founded by God, except the Torah which is part of our Bible. Let me ask you something Sammie, where do you think you are going to go when you die? Do you believe that there is a God who will judge you? Do you believe there is a Hell for non believers? Or are you just going to come back as butterfly or something. I'm curious on your position. Thanks

Your "proof" isn't proof. *sorry. *:(

And what the hell does one's perception of the afterlife (assuming one exists?) have anything to do with the validity of your religion?

[sammiedebull]

1) Nope, again you are wrong, Most Christains believe that the Bible was altered many times, so please dont continue on that notion.

2) No one said Jesus cannot be proven, can you physically prove that Jesus was here? Can you physically prove that the Bible, Torra or Quran came from God and it is Gods work? Im sure you can't. People have been trying for hundreads and if not thousands of years. Its all about faith, you read teh scripture and you believe what inside and the words make sense to you, they are logical in ost cases, do not sin, do not cheat, do not swear, etc.

3) I do believe that Jesus did these miracles and that Jesus was a wonderful prophet but thats beyond the point, the point is that can you physically prove it? NO! and the point to that is it still all comes back to faith, my faith tells me that Jesus was a wonderful person who did Miracles and was an excellent prophet.

4) "I believe the Bible is the only infallible words of God. No other book was founded by God" again you are wrong, the Bible comes from the Torra and that is what the old testament was based on, than came the new testament which is basically more tailred towards civil society.

5) There will be a judgement day, God will judge you by what you did on earth, God will judge what you deserve, Everyone should always know that God did not make us perfect, he expects us to make mistakes and he knows we will make them. God I think wants you to learn and not continue to have the same sins over and over again. Its basically a test, but this test does nto mean you cannot enjoy yourself, it means that you should always think about God before doing things in which you think he will disapprove of.

6) There is a Hell and Heaven, of course there is, I do not believe in reincarnation, I do not believe in athiesm, I do not believe in agnostics, i personally believe that those people who do not believe in God have a 1 way trip to hell, that is my personal belife BUT i will not be the ultimate judge, that is for GOD to decide. So if someone wants to be Gay, if someone wants to not believe in God, if someone wants to own a strip club, that is thier business, the Law of the land says people are free to do what they want as long as they follow the laws.

The problem is that right wingers such as yourself are saying that "if you do not believe Jesus Christ to be your savior than you are going to hell" and that is Insane! what gives you the mertit or right to say such things. Its God who will judge, not you or rudy :) So a guy in the middle of the jungle in Africa, what about him, does he know about christianity, islam, judism? what happens to him, is he going to hell? what about a good muslim, a good jew, are they going to hell?

The problem is that everyone thinks they are right, this is human nature, you want *think and believe that you are right, that your skin color, your race, your religion is the best way and the right way. let me tell you something champ, I think that God gives a fair chance to everyone as long as you believe that their is a God and that you try your best to respect others, refrane from sinning, help the poor, etc, than God will be with you, whether you are a Jew, Muslim, or Christian.

Also, does it bother you that Jews do not even believe Jesus was special at all, they do not even believe Jesus was a prophet, basically you believe that they killed Jesus! Now why does this christain counrty support the jews so much? does it make any sense to you? I ask because I am putting my mind set in to yours that you are right and that you are the perfect one. Please explain this reasoning an drational to me?

[sammiedebull]

You cant prove, its impossible, its faith.

its that simple. really, go ask your priest/rabii/sheik/imam to prove it to you, he simply can't. I am talking about scitificly, physically, etc, you can't man, if you can, you will be my new leader :)

[Samuel]

Their proof consists of a bunch of scrolls from ancient kings asking about Jesus. *In 15000 Years... Bush claiming that "God is on our side" will be presented as "proof" from the Desperate right.

[sammiedebull]

Everyone says "God is on their side".

Its human nature to think you are right, *I dont hold that against anyone.

thx - sam

[Nathan]

i agree with rudy we should only pray to God and it never ever said in the bible to pray to any other God or saint or even mary now i respect mary and she was a great women but she never said to pray to her thanks God Bless

[sammiedebull]

Nathan, not a very easy to understand reply :)

[CHALDEANELVIS]

I'm just going to say this. Yes, Jesus is the ONLY way in to go to Heaven. He wasn't just a "good person" who came to set morals. He said " I am THE way THE truth THE life, NOONE comes to the Father but through Me" Who is the Father? GOD. If there is salvation outside of Jesus, then that makes Jesus a liar and I no longer want Him as my savior. What about the other religions you might ask. Ask yourself how they were founded. By "angels of light" appearing to them and teaching them a "different Jesus" and a different method of salvation. Galatians 1:6-10 says "Even if we (Paul or the aposltes) should come down to you and preach unto you a different gospel other than what you have heard, let that angel be accursed!" Look at Mormons, they were founded by the angel Nephi who came and gave Joseph Smith golden plates and called God a liar! Look at Jehovas, they have seen prophetic flashes of light in which the gates of Heaven were revealed to a great number of their large congregational meetings. They believe the gates of Heaven were shut in the early 1900's due to being over packed, and no one can enter because it is over capacitated! Buddahism is a self condemned religion because they believe their god is confined in a statue. Muslims were founded by an angel. You really think there is no proof of Jesus? you really think there is no proof of the Bible and it's credibility? And you asked, "what about the man in the jungle" Here is your answer:

"For I am not ashamed of the glad tidings; for it is God's power to salvation, to every one that believes, both to Jew first and to Greek: for righteousness of God is revealed therein, on the principle of faith, to faith: according as it is written, But the just shall live by faith. For there is revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety, and unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness. Because what is known of God is manifest among them, for God has manifested [it] to them, -- for from [the] world's creation the invisible things of him are perceived, being apprehended by the mind through the things that are made, both his eternal power and divinity, -- so as to render them [highlight=red:ec79bd1216]inexcusable[/highlight:ec79bd1216]. Because, knowing God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but fell into folly in their thoughts, and their heart without understanding was darkened: [glow=yellow:ec79bd1216]professing themselves to be wise, they became fools[/glow:ec79bd1216], and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into [the] likeness of an image of corruptible man and of birds and quadrupeds and reptiles. Wherefore God gave them up [also] in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, to dishonour their bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into falsehood, and honoured and served the creature more than him who had created [it], who is blessed for ever."

I only hope the LORD opens your eyes to the truth. I have faith though, it's not impossibe for a wise man to humble himself and fall at the feet of Christ at Calvary. Whether you fall at your knees now or later doesn't matter, because when Christ returns "every knee shall drop and ever tounge shall confess"

The LORD Jesus Christ is the greatest thing thats ever happened to man. There is nothing, no philosophy or literature can denounce the Bible or Jesus.


I never said the Torah wasn't inspired, actually I said that it was.

You said:

The problem is that everyone thinks they are right, this is human nature, you want *think and believe that you are right, that your skin color, your race, your religion is the best way and the right way. let me tell you something champ, I think that God gives a fair chance to everyone as long as you believe that their is a God and that you try your best to respect others, refrane from sinning, help the poor, etc, than God will be with you,
whether you are a Jew, Muslim, or Christian.

That is a very interesting comment. So everyone that believes in God, God gives them the chance correct? The problem is, how do you know they are worshiping the CREATOR God. I don't believe any other religion is worshipping the Creator God. Catholics will say is you don't follow us, you are anethma. Muslims say that anyone that holds to the trinity is a pagan and there is no salvation outside of them. I can quote from the Quran if necessary. Jevhovas deny the trinity and the resurrection, which contradicts Romans 10:9, Mormons were founded by an angel that gave them the most blasphemous teaching I've ever heard. So by now you are wondering how is it then that I know I am following the "true" religion? Jesus Christ is GOD and He said apart from me there is no salvation and without me, there is no salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12) But now the problem is, we have to believe Jesus was really on earth. That's easy, look at the archealogical sources. They speak for themselves. I wish I could remember everything off the top off my head. Don't worry, my next post is going to cover everything you want to know. God Bless

[rudy]

I'm trying to keep off this topic but you guys keep making remarks that I have no choice but to respond. let say someone who hardly knows your family starts making wrong comments about your mother that you know is not true. you not going to sit there and say nothing. right? Let me tell you something I hold My God higher than any member of my family so when you start attacking my faith and my God I Will Respond to you! you guys keep saying " you cant prove the Bible". you are correct no matter how much proof I give you you will not believe. Because your view of the Bible is based on "what if". Let me use your logic now What if you are wrong? Than what? Lets say what I said is wrong. Than according to your logic I have nothing to loose. BUT What If I'm correct? Than you have some serious problems. I challenge you to show me what in the Bible can not be proven!

[Samuel]

I'm trying to keep off this topic but you guys keep making remarks that I have no choice but to respond. let say someone who hardly knows your family starts making wrong comments about your mother that you know is not true. you not going to sit there and say nothing. right? Let me tell you something I hold My God higher than any member of my family so when you start attacking my faith and my God I Will Respond to you! you guys keep saying " you cant prove the Bible". you are correct no matter how much proof I give you you will not believe. Because your view of the Bible is based on "what if". Let me use your logic now What if you are wrong? Than what? Lets say what I said is wrong. Than according to your logic I have nothing to loose. BUT What If I'm correct? Than you have some serious problems. I challenge you to show me what in the Bible can not be proven!

HAHAHAAHAHAHA. *Eve was made from Adam's rib, eh?

[Nathan]

hay samad if ur tryin to be funny its not workin for u buddy

God Bless

[ojeen1981]

okay..read some stuff here and both sides make a ligitimate argument. *

But let me try to summurize both sides in a synthesis. *Jesus Said to Love your God with all your Heart, all your Soul and all your Mind. *MIND = this means to understand scripture and in a way, become a skeptic....becuase i belive that after a stage of skeptisim u come back even with a much stronger faith. *

Now, Religions in general can not be proven, nor can everything that science says, for example, there are things in the human body that happen which physicians still don’t know exactly why, evolution theory, big bang, even gravity (can u see gravity?) the point is this, you have faith, but not blind faith. *What I did is skeptically began to question the Bible, studied other world faiths and found flaw in all. *Biblical scripture seems be logical and coherent along side with that there are historical and archeological evidence which proves events that took place in the Bible. *Jesus said “blessed those who believe without seeing” our human nature needs factual evidence to belief. *Jesus, in particular, is recorded in history and everything he says is flawless. *My faith comes first and foremost, but my faith is reinforced by all these other findings. God bless all..peace

[Nathan]

perfect i couldnt explain it better

[Samuel]

okay..read some stuff here and both sides make a ligitimate argument. *

But let me try to summurize both sides in a synthesis. *Jesus Said to Love your God with all your Heart, all your Soul and all your Mind. *MIND = this means to understand scripture and in a way, become a skeptic....becuase i belive that after a stage of skeptisim u come back even with a much stronger faith. *

Now, Religions in general can not be proven, nor can everything that science says, for example, there are things in the human body that happen which physicians still don’t know exactly why, evolution theory, big bang, even gravity (can u see gravity?) the point is this, you have faith, but not blind faith. *What I did is skeptically began to question the Bible, studied other world faiths and found flaw in all. *Biblical scripture seems be logical and coherent along side with that there are historical and archeological evidence which proves events that took place in the Bible. *Jesus said “blessed those who believe without seeing” our human nature needs factual evidence to belief. *Jesus, in particular, is recorded in history and everything he says is flawless. *My faith comes first and foremost, but my faith is reinforced by all these other findings. God bless all..peace


Difference: *Religion is not falsifiable. *On the other hand, scientific theories are falsifiable. *It is in fact possible to prove them wrong. * Therefore, there is some credibility to the theories themselves. *There's no credibility to stories about people biting into figs and being damned for eternity. *

As a pseudo-philosopher you must have heard of "falsifiability" and its application...

But since i'm positive that your claims are Tongue-in-cheek... here's a little "somethin somethin." *

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability


On the view of some, theism is not falsifiable, since the existence of God is typically asserted without sufficient conditions to allow a falsifying observation. God being a transcendental being, beyond the realm of the observable, claims about its existence can neither be supported nor undermined by observation. It is quite consistent for a theist to agree that the existence of God is unfalsifiable, and that the proposition is not scientific, but to still claim that God exists. This is, of course, a matter of interest for anyone who places stock in natural theology--the argument from design and other a posteriori arguments for the existence of God.

[rudy]

I'm trying to keep off this topic but you guys keep making remarks that I have no choice but to respond. let say someone who hardly knows your family starts making wrong comments about your mother that you know is not true. you not going to sit there and say nothing. right? Let me tell you something I hold My God higher than any member of my family so when you start attacking my faith and my God I Will Respond to you! you guys keep saying " you cant prove the Bible". you are correct no matter how much proof I give you you will not believe. Because your view of the Bible is based on "what if". Let me use your logic now What if you are wrong? Than what? Lets say what I said is wrong. Than according to your logic I have nothing to loose. BUT What If I'm correct? Than you have some serious problems. I challenge you to show me what in the Bible can not be proven!
HAHAHAAHAHAHA. *Eve was made from Adam's rib, eh? Proverbs 35-7 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart: AND LEAN NOT UNTO THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct they paths. BE NOT WISE IN THINE OWN EYES. Fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

[ojeen1981]

u missed my point samd. *

I was simply saying that Science also relies on some form of metaphysical faith. *If u study chemistry ull see things like “ideal gases”, this environment does not exist but we need this “theoretical conception” to understand the universe. *Physics, like big bang theory and so on. *A scientist or an atheists who holds by these does so not because of evidence that they see, but because of faith, a faith based (according to them) on some logical sequences and so forth. *And I agree with what u said, and thanks for the insinuation and sarcastic remark about me being a "pseudo-philosopher", next time u make a claim like that, plz go read some Hegel, Kant, Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, Kierkagard, Nietche, and i can go on...then maybe maybe ull have the privliaged understanding of calling someone a "pseudo-philosopher", which am not...God bless n peace

[sammiedebull]

How could you believe that God is equal to man and that is what Jesus was. Christains belive Jesus was 3, Gods son, God and the Holy spirit.

Jews and Muslim believe that thier is one God. Also its again obvious that everyone is right, It's not worth arguing because if someone could deliver all the answers, everyone in the world would follow them.

I think your expectations are all unrealistic.

Rudy, no one is attack you or the religion, i talk with many many many peoplea about this topic, its very interesting and there are no easy answers. For example, No one can prove any religion, they have faith in a religion and its teachings. If you could prove everything like you are saying, than by God you will have everyone converting to it with out question.

Seriously sit down for a min and think, dont question your religion and autehnticity of it, i do not think this is the topic o fthe post, the real question should be, can i with 100% certainty bring a proof to the table which will show anyone that the bible or torra or quran was the message of god, can i 100% show that Jesus was here, that Jesus did what he did? can i prove that the bush lit in front of moses? mohammah with the messenger in the cave? can you prove those? Im not questionsining religion or its authenticity of it, i believe whole heartidly in religon and God. you keep going off topic, also please dont list artificats or dates when things happen, list proof. A robe found that is said to be 2000 years old and says jesus one it does it mean it was the robe jesus had.

The main questions and comments are :

1) can you prove religion? or even evolution, does not matter, what ever you believe.

2) can *you prove scripture? they say the bible was modified many times, can you prove that every word was from god?

3) How could you say the bible is from god but its basically the old testament which is a modified version of teh torrah? and the new testament is basically an upgraded version of the old testament, basically less strict and more socially ept.

4) Why do you think you are right? you say its not possible for a muslim or jew to go to heaven? wow!

5) I agree with the comment you made which said that you have nothing to loose, that what i would tell an athiest or agnostic, do your best to *research and believe in god, you have nothing to loose, but if you think about it, for those people, its more of a "act", to believe in God, you need to feel it, you need to believe it, you need to live it.

6) Again, i say God is forgiving, would make NO sense at all for him to create a perfect world, what would be the point?

anyway, i guareentee you that no one would come to conslusion on this topic, people have been studying this stuff for hundreads of years, even thousands of years.

everyone thinks they are right, muslim, jew, christain, hindu, etc.

I believe in a few rules :

1) If you dont believe in 1 God than you are in trouble.

2) If you are gay you are in trouble.

3) If you dont follow the "basics" of any religion than you are in trouble.

Does this mean that if you are any of the above that you will go to hellp, i believe so BUT than again, i am not God, God will make that judgement.

ALso dont try to act or think like God, God is at a different level, I really think that a human cannot think or even comprehend at the level in which God does. God has different properties, different everything, Humans cannot comprehend his power or his specific properties.

anyhow, I am done with this topic, my word of advise is to stay open minded, thing of others, be true to your self, your religion and family and try to connect with other coltures and religions, it will only make you more wise.

[sammiedebull]

Also AN, do you see what you did to the board :) everyone is crazy now :)

Good Topic :)

[renee]

So, how about those Tigers?

[sammiedebull]

they are terrible, did anyone see teh yankees get a good beating today :)

[ojeen1981]

sammie, very intresting perespective u have. *I like your method of looking at religion as a skeptic, shows me you are thinking. *

Let me just say a few things, There are four Roman historians that actually talked about Jesus of Nazareth. *

I would like to give u an example and u can judge for yourself. *The story of Noah, or the story of the flood, is found in many ancient mythological stories, in Sumerian, Phoenician, and many other myths that arose from that certain geographical area. *Of course, each story has its own interpretation as to the reasons why such a flood would take place. *To me, I know the flood took place for two reason. *Because so many ancient mythological stories refer to a catastrophic flood event that took place and secondly, because there are geological reasons that prove it. *

So now u have many different cultures with their own “ways of seeing” interpreting the same event believing that their respective gods were the result of the event. *Now its left up to our faith to accept that my God (Christian God) was the result of the event. *

If your read Kierkegaard, immunal Kant and St. Thomas Aquinas u will understand how they say (from a philosophical perspective) how their comes a point where we have to rely on faith. *And please don’t take faith for granted, it’s a big deal!! God bless. peace

[UmiSayz]

So umi do you *consider it to be violent if a group of people were inbeded in the practice of rap, incests, burning of children, killing of the poor and handicap, homosexuality, living like wild animals, ext. ext. If God himself put laws down in bring control to an unstable world, than *do consider this violence? Because that is what is going on in the verses that sammie posted. just please go back to what i posted and test it for yourself Dont take my word for it. GOd Bless

NO i do not consider Christians to be a violent group at all. He was just proving you that the Bible preaches violence. He didn't do it out of disrespecting you.

[UmiSayz]

Please, read the context. And you said "He was just trying to prove the Bible preached violence? Is that ALL he implied? If so, why?




Go back to what Rudy said in previous post. I dont think Sammie would bring it up for nothing....








The best atheist debater would recant all his teaching against the best Christian debater. Actually, its already happened many times. A 30 year atheist scholar (I can get his name if absolutely necessary so you can check for yourself) gave up on atheism because there was just way too much evidence that God does exist. He is now a Christian preacher *





Ok i dont know what you're trying to imply here but saying that if you read the Bible...you gonna become Chrisitian? Good for that preacher. I've read the Bible numerous of times...before practicing Islam and after and not a damn thing in the Bible convinced me to convert to Christianity.

[UmiSayz]

Sammie- I respect your opinion on how you dont follow the Quran literally but i have to ask you this. Do you follow the 5 pillars....atleast? ;)

[sammiedebull]

Actually I am not a skeptic, I am trying to show you that religious scripture cannot be taken literally (killing gays, killing witches, killing "non-believers", etc.), thats all. Faith is what it is all based upon, not proof.

[UmiSayz]

i'm not going to speak for the Koran or the Torah. but can u show me where in the Bible it says to kill anyone who threatens my realigon? let me save you some, time its not there. but it does tell me to love and feed my enemy and pray for those who persecute me. I will say this Jesus himself said these words in Matthew chapter 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. also remember our Saviours dieing words while he was on the cross. he Said Father forgive them for they know not what they do. he was refereing to the same people who were killing him. God Bless.


ChaldeanElvis-- Thats why Sammie bought up the quotes.

[sammiedebull]

Not really. But i try my best.

[UmiSayz]

Not really. But i try my best.


The five pillars isn't really that hard. :alright:

[UmiSayz]

it is OK for women to be equal, to work, to do as they please.




Its been OK for over 1400 yrs ;)

[sammiedebull]

Not in Saudi Arabia :)

[rudy]

How could you believe that God is equal to man and that is what Jesus was. Christains belive Jesus was 3, Gods son, God and the Holy spirit.

Jews and Muslim believe that thier is one God. Also its again obvious that everyone is right, It's not worth arguing because if someone could deliver all the answers, everyone in the world would follow them.

I think your expectations are all unrealistic.

Rudy, no one is attack you or the religion, i talk with many many many peoplea about this topic, its very interesting and there are no easy answers. For example, No one can prove any religion, they have faith in a religion and its teachings. If you could prove everything like you are saying, than by God you will have everyone converting to it with out question.

Seriously sit down for a min and think, dont question your religion and autehnticity of it, i do not think this is the topic o fthe post, the real question should be, can i with 100% certainty bring a proof to the table which will show anyone that the bible or torra or quran was the message of god, can i 100% show that Jesus was here, that Jesus did what he did? can i prove that the bush lit in front of moses? mohammah with the messenger in the cave? can you prove those? Im not questionsining religion or its authenticity of it, i believe whole heartidly in religon and God. you keep going off topic, also please dont list artificats or dates when things happen, list proof. A robe found that is said to be 2000 years old and says jesus one it does it mean it was the robe jesus had.

The main questions and comments are :

1) can you prove religion? or even evolution, does not matter, what ever you believe.

2) can *you prove scripture? they say the bible was modified many times, can you prove that every word was from god?

3) How could you say the bible is from god but its basically the old testament which is a modified version of teh torrah? and the new testament is basically an upgraded version of the old testament, basically less strict and more socially ept.

4) Why do you think you are right? you say its not possible for a muslim or jew to go to heaven? wow!

5) I agree with the comment you made which said that you have nothing to loose, that what i would tell an athiest or agnostic, do your best to *research and believe in god, you have nothing to loose, but if you think about it, for those people, its more of a "act", to believe in God, you need to feel it, you need to believe it, you need to live it.

6) Again, i say God is forgiving, would make NO sense at all for him to create a perfect world, what would be the point?

anyway, i guareentee you that no one would come to conslusion on this topic, people have been studying this stuff for hundreads of years, even thousands of years.

everyone thinks they are right, muslim, jew, christain, hindu, etc.

I believe in a few rules :

1) If you dont believe in 1 God than you are in trouble.

2) If you are gay you are in trouble.

3) If you dont follow the "basics" of any religion than you are in trouble.

Does this mean that if you are any of the above that you will go to hellp, i believe so BUT than again, i am not God, God will make that judgement.

ALso dont try to act or think like God, God is at a different level, I really think that a human cannot think or even comprehend at the level in which God does. God has different properties, different everything, Humans cannot comprehend his power or his specific properties.

anyhow, I am done with this topic, my word of advise is to stay open minded, thing of others, be true to your self, your religion and family and try to connect with other coltures and religions, it will only make you more wise.You said it takes Faith to believe. And I said I agree with you but you keep on saying “you cant prove”. Here is my Question to you. Where does faith come from? I just want your hear your answer to my question and give me your definition of “faith”. Thank you and God Bless.

[Teffo]

you know i think it's ridiculous how everyone is arguing about christianity...why does it matter how you pray as long as you pray...??? *if we are praying to Jesus Christ....does it matter which way we make the cross or what words we chose to say? *I mean what if someone doesn't know how to pray "correctly" and just decides to talk to God? *why does it matter? *God didn't create all these different types of Christianity...we idiot humans did...organized religion seems to be a way to control the masses...everyone needs to stop promoting their interpretations of the bible and let it be...if you want to preach to a non-christian WHO IS WILING TO LEARN then go for it...otherwise stop imposing your beliefs on others!

[sammiedebull]

Faith is gained by knowledge, by challenging what you believe, by speaking to others, by reading scripture and trying to understand what it means, by looking at your sorroundings and believing that a higher power must have created it.

Look at birth, look at miracles, look at achievements, look at how the human is different that other living things on earth, you should look at it all and believe that their is a higher power, a God who made this all happen.

[renee]

they are terrible, did anyone see teh yankees get a good beating today :)

I luv it when the Yankees get traunced.

[Samuel]

I'm all about those faithful and righteous San Diego PADRES. *God Bless them.

[UmiSayz]

I'm all about those faithful and righteous San Diego PADRES. *God Bless them.

Oh wowie a padres fan...GET LOST! LoL

[ojeen1981]

sammie, i disagree with you. *Faith is a metaphysical unexplainable thing, given to us from God as a mechanism to belive in him. *Knowledge, questioning, reading and the things u stated are things that reinforce your faith, they dont not give rise to faith. *Otherwise, Faith would not be a metaphsical concept, but something based on some knowledge or a methodological understanding of life. *

This is another reason why i belive in God, because faith was a gifet given to us from him. *

Thanks ..God bless ..peace

[John_5_24]

Sammie,
I am new to this board, so forgive me if I don't completely understand your position, but I've read your last few posts and would like to answer some of your questions directly.

First of all, let me just say that you seem to be searching for proof of this and that. *Let me say that while many things are indeed "proveable", many items in Scripture are accepted as a matter of faith. *For example, can I prove that Moses parted the Red Sea? *Well, I don't have video of it, so no, I guess I can't prove it the way you are asking of me. *Can I prove that David killed Goliath? *Again, I don't have video. *Did God really create Adam from the dirt of the ground? *I can't prove this to your either.

You see, if we could prove everything in the Bible, then faith would cease to be faith. *You must understand what faith is. *Faith is: "...the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (Heb 11:1). *

You are trying to reason faith, and this is where you have erred. *This is not to say at all that faith is unreasonable, but rather that faith itself is a gift from God. *I certainly can not prove something to you that you will only see as Truth if God himself shows it to you. *The Scriptures themselves tell us that "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. " (1Cor 2:14). *If you want proof, don't ask for it on this forum or on any other forum, get down on your knees and sincerely ask God to prove it to you. *See what he shows you. *Will he send you to the Torah, to the Koran, to the Bible..........? *What will God show you as Truth? *

Also, you seem to see most of the major religions as valid in one way or another. *This can not be correct. *You see, Muslims certainly don't believe that Christians are going to paradise, and the Bible certainly very clearly states that Jesus Christ alone is the only way to salvation (I can post verses if you like). *Jew can't believe that Christians are going to heaven, because as Christians we identify Jesus as God, and to a Jew, that would have to qualify as idolatry. *You see, none of the major religions would agree with your position, so why do you hold to it? *Additionally, you are holding to a false belief that Jews, Muslims and Christians worship the same God. *THIS IS FLATLY FALSE. *Let's start with Christians, as I just stated, we believe that Jesus Christ is fully part of the triune God. *Jews reject that as do Muslims. *So, how can you say we all acknowledge the same God? *

Sammie, again, you say that no one can deliver all the answers and I actually agree with you on that. *Well, almost, God can. *God alone can grant you saving faith. *If you truly want the answers, ask him. *Pray to him. *Ask him to show you the truth. *I would be curious to see where he leads you.

Oh, and don't expect him to write the answer down on a piece of paper, or send an Angel to you or something. *He very well may, but God works in his own ways and will answer your questions in his own time. *Until then, I would like you to consider this question from me. *How much proof do you need? *You said you wanted proof, what proof would be enough?

I do wish you well, and hope that you find the answers you are searching for.

[sammiedebull]

ojeen1981, what about the guy in africa who was never introduced to any religion? what about the kid who was never taught to follow religion by his family?

[Teffo]

sammie...that's a really good question to ask...i asked the same at a bible study meeting and the priest said that you can't hold them accountable for that because they are not dismissing the idea of God or christ....

[John_5_24]

sammie, very intresting perespective u have. *I like your method of looking at religion as a skeptic, shows me you are thinking. *

Let me just say a few things, There are four Roman historians that actually talked about Jesus of Nazareth. *

I would like to give u an example and u can judge for yourself. *The story of Noah, or the story of the flood, is found in many ancient mythological stories, in Sumerian, Phoenician, and many other myths that arose from that certain geographical area. *Of course, each story has its own interpretation as to the reasons why such a flood would take place. *To me, I know the flood took place for two reason. *Because so many ancient mythological stories refer to a catastrophic flood event that took place and secondly, because there are geological reasons that prove it. *

So now u have many different cultures with their own “ways of seeing” interpreting the same event believing that their respective gods were the result of the event. *Now its left up to our faith to accept that my God (Christian God) was the result of the event. *

If your read Kierkegaard, immunal Kant and St. Thomas Aquinas u will understand how they say (from a philosophical perspective) how their comes a point where we have to rely on faith. *And please don’t take faith for granted, it’s a big deal!! God bless. peace


Ojeen, I am curious then how you account for the Mt. Ararat anomoly?

Please read this story and visit the links on it to see what I mean.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40060

[Teffo]

lol there were floods in all places all over the world and every great civilization has a flood story...even japan does about a brother and sister who's tears started the flood...flooding took place 2 times a year in the fertile cresent...so how can you vouch for these theories...?

[sammiedebull]

Greetings John_5_24,

First i would like to welcome you to the board :)

Second, I do not expect things to be written down or video taped, the entire discussion was based on whether you could take scripture literally and my stand and any religious leaders stand will tell you you cannot. For example as i stated before, most religious scripture says to kill witches and gays. Now do you see people going out and killing witches and gays just for religious reasons? thats the who base of this discussion but obviously everyone likes to twist and turn and it made it in to a full blown topic.

Thirdly, ITS OBVIOUS THAT all religions do not follow the same God :) Hello!!! we are way past that. Ok, lets say I am a christian or Muslim, I would hope that God would not send one side or the other and would be forgiving to which ever one is correct. So you are a christain, you are saying that a really good jew or muslim is going to hell? a jew or muslim who follows his religion, who donates to the poor, who works hard for his family, who does all the right things, than you can sit here and tell me that they are going to hell? see, I think you may be one of those people who thinks no matter how much you sin as long as you follow and accept jusus than you have a pass :) you are way off.

Again, We have talked about the differences of religions, we have talked about the beliefs and so on, that is old, you should do a search and see what our views are about that in different topics.

The key idea is that you trust you faith in what ever religion you follow, you read scripture, challange the religion, listen to others speak about the religion and you will than get closer to God. You simply saying that BAM! religion just comes to someone is nonsense. Again, look at the guy in the middle of africa, he was never introduced to religion, waht it simple given to him? so one day he wakes up and BAM! he sees a light? come on, serious, i know you people are very passionate about this topic but be realistic.

I believe in religion, actually people say i am to right on many social issues and again you can search and read about things such as abortion, death penality and you will see what others think about in this forum and what I, myself thinks.

By the way, most religions are pretty much the sam, the main ones that is which are Islam, Christianity and the Jewish/Hebrew. Think about it, they all say to be good, donate to the poor, do not cheat, do not steal, etc, all the basics are pretty much the same. Obviously there are differences but I think that GOD IS FORGIVING so i do not believe that GOD will put an opposite religion in hell even if they were great people. Thats my belief, does it go against my religion scripture? yes, it does, if i am wrong than i hope God will forgive me for it.

Do lets say you are a christain and you drink, you own a strip club, you steal, do bad things and so on, Now lets say we have a Good Jew or Muslim, they work hard, they donate, they pray, they donate time to help the poor, they are simply good people. Who will GOD look at first to go to heaven? You who was a big time sinner or this Good person?

One thing I have learned, God has different properties, God is not like a human, we cannot even BEGIN to comprehend what God thinks like, How he looks, etc.

God is forgiving, I really believe that.

I also think as i stated before that there are some things that GOD can't get beyond, that is :

1) Not believing in GOD. (athiest / agnostic)

2) Bieng gay (very bad in Gods eyes).

3) repeated sins over and over again (God is forgiving but not when you do teh same sin 400 times and you know its wrong!).

Now this is what I think. BUT GOD will be the ultimate judge, it's all in his hands.

Finally I am done here. This can go on for ever. It's human nature for everyone to think they are part of the best religion, the best race, the best gender, etc. Everyone thinks they are right, I guess when the day of judgement comes we will see :)

[John_5_24]

sammie...that's a really good question to ask...i asked the same at a bible study meeting and the priest said that you can't hold them accountable for that because they are not dismissing the idea of God or christ....

Teffo, this is the most outrageous argument ever.

The Bible is very clear that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. *

Act 4:12 *And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Joh 3:18 *Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

These words are not qualified with "if you have heard of Jesus". *Nowhere is anyone saved because of their ignorance. *That's rediculous. *Think about this seriously for a moment, if people were saved by ignorance, wouldn't we all be better off if we burned our Bibles and closed our churches?? *That way no one would know about Jesus, God or anything and everyone would go to heaven.

[renee]

wouldn't we all be better off if we burned our Bibles and closed our churches?? *.

Now there's an Idea. *:alright:

[sammiedebull]

Actuallt teffo is RIGHT. The guy in the middle of africa cant even read a book, hes a hunter and gatherer man, you are seriously not bieng realistic! Now lets say you believed in Jesus becaus eyou were taught and you have faith, Now lets say that you do not have access to scripture or the bible or even access to people who teach religion? what would happen, all you would know is that there is this "god named jesus". But do you know his message, his stories? etc?

Makes no sense, no one wakes up in the morning and becomes a christain, a muslim, a jew, etc?

A simple one is this :

Lets say you are born and your family give syou up, lets say you were born a christain and you were adopted by a muslim family, by human nature and family bonds, what do you think the religion of the kid will be? seriously, come on, be realistic! it will obviously be Muslim! because that is what his family raised him to be and with time the child will be gin to feel it, to se ethe light, be become a good muslim, what is wrong with that?

[sammiedebull]

renee you punk :)

[John_5_24]

Sammie,
You say you are done with this topic and I can respect that. *Just two quick points.

1) *I do not believe that I can intently and purposely continue to sin armed with the knowledge that God will forgive me because I believe in Christ. *On the contrary, it is because of my faith in Christ that I strive to be as sinless as possible. *I do fail, but that does not mean that I give in saying that God will forgive me so carelessly as you insinuated.

2) *You speak of being good. *Have you not heard that there are none that are "good" before God? *Giving to the poor and taking care of the weak do not make you "good enough" to get to heaven, I don't care what your religion is. *Paul himself calls himself the "chief of sinners". *Does that sound like he thought he was "good"? *If you read Romans 7, you can also see that Paul certainly did not take his own sin lightly. *The fact of the matter is, no one is good, and we are all sinners. *This is exactly why we need a savior. *

I respect that you are done with this thread, but I would enjoy speaking with you about this further if you are ever up for it.

Just IM or email me.

[caz]

sammie hunni, punk aint enough for her, how can u agree to such stupid rude, cruel statement as that *:no no: *:bang:

btw welcome back *:roll: , lets hear it renee, lol

[sammiedebull]

John, John, John you are killing me :)

I know your arguements and i know teh common arguements and of course we are all sinners and that God is forgiving, thats is obvious in all religions.

But you are saying that no matter how bad a christian is, he can still go to heaven and no matter how great a jew or muslim is that he cannot go to heaven.

Look at my example above about the kid :)

the point is that in the day of judgement, God is the only one who can judge, not you, not rudy, not anyone, its God who will judge.

God Bless.

[sammiedebull]

caz, i do not agree, shes insane, we already know that but i wont judge her, God will :)

[Teffo]

Actuallt teffo is RIGHT. The guy in the middle of africa cant even read a book, hes a hunter and gatherer man, you are seriously not bieng realistic! Now lets say you believed in Jesus becaus eyou were taught and you have faith, Now lets say that you do not have access to scripture or the bible or even access to people who teach religion? what would happen, all you would know is that there is this "god named jesus". But do you know his message, his stories? etc?

Makes no sense, no one wakes up in the morning and becomes a christain, a muslim, a jew, etc?

A simple one is this :

Lets say you are born and your family give syou up, lets say you were born a christain and you were adopted by a muslim family, by human nature and family bonds, what do you think the religion of the kid will be? seriously, come on, be realistic! it will obviously be Muslim! because that is what his family raised him to be and with time the child will be gin to feel it, to se ethe light, be become a good muslim, what is wrong with that?


thanks sammie and i agree with you!

[sammiedebull]

Thx Tefoo.

There are also some things that cannot be explained, if everything was explained and the world was perfect, what would be the point :)

[John_5_24]

[quote="sammiedebull @ Sun May 29, 2005 10:34 pm"]
Makes no sense, no one wakes up in the morning and becomes a christain, a muslim, a jew, etc?

[quote]

Paul did. *The Apostles did. *As did those who were added to the church in Acts 2. *As did those who were added in Corinth by Paul's preaching........

Now you will say, yeah, but someone preached to them. *This is true, very true. *I ask you now, if God wanted someone out in the middle of ______________(fill in the blank) preached to, don't you think God is powerful enough to send a missionary to them? *Wherever they are? *Do you truly believe God is able to save and fulfill His purpose as He pleases? *If you don't then you don't believe in Scripture, and we have a larger problem before we even come close to dealing with this hypothetical.

[Teffo]

do you honestly think that God meddles?

[ojeen1981]

John, i agree with everything u said, and i dont know what u mean in regards to your question about "mt. ararat anomily"?? all i know that mt. Ararat is where the Bible says Noah's arch was landed on, which is between the borders of current day turkey and armenia, plz rephrase your question if u dont mind. *

Now sammie, u asked about the African who never heared of christ....The Bible says that no one can attain salavation only through Jesus christ as our Lord and Savior. *Having said that, it is assumed that those who belief in Jesus with all their heart will attain eternal life....yes thats right......The African who never heared of christ and dies...well this goes to a whole different subject that i choose not to even dare to get into becuase its waaaaay to complicated...."predestination". *

As far as the misconception of "good works" will attain u eternal life is a big time false teaching and misrepresntation of Biblical theological teachings. *

among the many other differeances between the Bible and world faiths, one of the most important differeance is that the Bible explicitly says that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" and that any "good work" we do does not do any good for God. *Other world faiths, however, preach that good works will satisfy their super being (whom ever it maybe). *The point is that:

Christianty Good works are no good

Other faiths *Good works r good


God bless all..PEACE

[sammiedebull]

again, i believe in scripture, i just dont take everything literally, please look up older topics to see oru stand on such issues, its to much to write and explain when we already talked about it.

You pose a good question. But I will hit you right back, If God didn't want people to go to hell or wanted everyone to "follow jesus christ as their lord and savior" than why didn't he make everyone christain? why does he allow people to be athiest? etc?. actually this can be endless, there is a reason for everything and this is teh way God wanted it.

But i still believe that God is forgiving.

[John_5_24]

John, John, John you are killing me :)

I know your arguements and i know teh common arguements and of course we are all sinners and that God is forgiving, thats is obvious in all religions.

But you are saying that no matter how bad a christian is, he can still go to heaven and no matter how great a jew or muslim is that he cannot go to heaven.

Look at my example above about the kid :)

the point is that in the day of judgement, God is the only one who can judge, not you, not rudy, not anyone, its God who will judge.

God Bless.

Sammie, you assume that because someone calls themselves a Christian, that they truly are. *Don't just Christianity by those who call themselves Christians, myself included. *Again, I reiterate, a person with true saving knowledge and faith in Christ as their savior will still sin, but they will not continue in sin the way you state it, that being purposely and intently. *Oh, and yes, I do believe that no matter how "great" a Jew or Muslim is that they will spend eternity in hell. *I am not judging them personally, but am applying the judgement God has laid our for them in Scripture.

[sammiedebull]

Yes, this can go on for ever :) Thats my 2 cents :) Keep an open mind and always believe that God is forgiving. Thank God some of you are nto our leaders, Boy we would be in big time trouble!!!

God Bless Jerry Faldwell, actually the guy is a retard. Most americans and christians do nto take it to such extrems that you guys do. With your appraoch, why do you gather up all teh gays, all the jews, all the muslims and end their misserey now? I mean that is the way you think, that is the way you look at things? why not?

People need to keep an open mind, follow their faith, their religion, their family, do their best, dont preech to others, dont force your religion to others and at the end of the day, God will judge!

[John_5_24]

well this goes to a whole different subject that i choose not to even dare to get into becuase its waaaaay to complicated...."predestination". *




Ojeen,
Predestination is actually one of my favorite topics.

Let me know if you have any questions.

It's a topic that is worth a basic study at minimum to understand hypotheticals such as this that are being posed. *Truthfully, these hypotheticals are completely invalid, because they assume that things can happen that are not in conformity to God's will.

Please feel free to take me up on my offer. *I do enjoy the conversation and study immensly.

[sammiedebull]

are you a priest? thats cheating, not fair :)

[sammiedebull]

Now who gave me bad karma :) your a dead man!

[ojeen1981]

John, umm..i love this subject too, and am happy to find people like yourself who seem to know so much about the Bible, God bless u man!!

I dont take the John Calvin conception of predestination, I am still debating if I agree with St. Augstine's understanding of predestination. *I am trying my best (when i have time) to understand predestination from the Bible in its contexts and theological fondation. *By the way, Romans 9 is addressed to the jews and many people who uphold the Calvinsts conception of predestination falsly direct me to this chapter. *LEt me know what u think about it..peace

[caz]

loool sammie u crack me up, we'll find out and beat them in the alley lol haha fine ill give u another one so u dont feel so bad being a negative one instead ull have a negative 2 hehe *:goofy: , jk

[John_5_24]

John, umm..i love this subject too, and am happy to find people like yourself who seem to know so much about the Bible, God bless u man!!

I dont take the John Calvin conception of predestination, I am still debating if I agree with St. Augstine's understanding of predestination. *I am trying my best (when i have time) to understand predestination from the Bible in its contexts and theological fondation. *By the way, Romans 9 is addressed to the jews and many people who uphold the Calvinsts conception of predestination falsly direct me to this chapter. *LEt me know what u think about it..peace

Ojeen, I would disagree with you on Romans 9 based on verses 6-10. *I believe that all who believe in Christ are part of Israel and the seed of Abraham. * Additionally, why would Paul write a letter to the Roman church *that was intended for the Jews?

I certainly don't agree with Calvin on everything, but do agree with the TULIP.

I would certainly enjoy discussing this further as I do enjoy this topic immensly.

[John_5_24]

Sammie,
Just curious where you got the idea that God did not want people to go to Hell?

I will warn you that we are about to travel down a very deep theological road that I do not believe is fit for this forum and would like to continue via email if you like.

John_5_24@yahoo.com

[missbaghdad]

Why doesn't God want people to go to Hell? Because we are all his children!!!

Do you want something horrible to happen to your children?? NOOOOOOOO and that's why God doesn't want people to go to Hell.

[missbaghdad]

ALso dont try to act or think like God, God is at a different level, I really think that a human cannot think or even comprehend at the level in which God does. God has different properties, different everything, Humans cannot comprehend his power or his specific properties.

Exactly. *:alright: * *:alright:

Do you think that when an ant crawls on your finger he can comprehend what a human is? Noooooooope. Well said Sammie

[John_5_24]

Why doesn't God want people to go to Hell? Because we are all his children!!!

Do you want something horrible to happen to your children?? NOOOOOOOO and that's why God doesn't want people to go to Hell.

missbaghdad,
how would you explain this verse then?

Pro 16:4 *The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.



AGAIN, THIS IS A VERY DEEP TOPIC AND I WILL NOT CONTINUE IT HERE. *I WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO DISCUSS IT VIA EMAIL.

John_5_24@yahoo.com

[ojeen1981]

John, Romans 9 was directed to the jews because when Paul wrote the letter to the romans it was mainly concerned with the fate of gentiles and he was trying to show the unversallity of Jesus! he did not touch on jews till chap. 9 of romans and u can look this up in any Bible, their are other reason to this that i have to restudy this issue again, and plz forgive me for my inadequate supply of information. *

TULP is intresting as well but i dont like to adopt it as a way to see predestination becuase it contradicts things like free will and origin of evil/temptation (a whole other subject). *But, the way that calvin concevied predestination gave rise to political ideologies and corrupted the "ways of seeing" of people. *for example, *it gave rise to things like "manifest Destiny" as a form of political ideology to earily america. *As Max Weber said, and i totaly agree with him, calvin's Predestination gave rise to capitalism in the western world, how? people saw that accumlation of wealth as a sign that one is "predestined" by God to go to heaven and u can see the point. *God bless and PEace

[ojeen1981]

i know where u going with this topic john, and i agree with u (refering to your discusion with misbaghdad)

[ojeen1981]

everyone if its no biggy go to the topic where it says "plz read" trust me ull like it..thanks

[sammiedebull]

Guys, you are wayyyyyyyyyyyy to the right on religion, John, I have been very busy, its to hard for me to communicate at times, specially via email, i attend the forum because i have many friends here and i enjoy learning the view points of others.

This subject is deep, its way to deep, everything has their belief and their faith behind them. All this you said does not change my view. Its interesting to know your view, but still, it does not do much, actually I have had these conversations with many many many people.

anyhow, i respect your view and thoughs.

thank you

sammie

P.S. Miss Baghdad, how is washington :) ?

[CHALDEANELVIS]

Sammie Wrote:

"So you are a christain, you are saying that a really good jew or muslim is going to hell? a jew or muslim who follows his religion, who donates to the poor, who works hard for his family, who does all the right things, than you can sit here and tell me that they are going to hell? see, I think you may be one of those people who thinks no matter how much you sin as long as you follow and accept jusus than you have a pass *you are way off."

All I hear is this talk about "what if this" and "what if that". Well first and foremost, like John_ said, "There is none righteous, no, not even one" --Romans 3:10. "[highlight=yellow:d3db71b9f7]All[/highlight:d3db71b9f7] have sinned and fall short the glory of God" --Romans 3:23 I just wanted to put those verses in play. Sammie, there is no one good. What if I told you that you can feed the entire world, build homeless shelters all across the world, and do all these good things and receive a noble prize from every president and king and be praised by all the people in the world for your good works and still go to Hell because you did it all in the name of a false prophet! "You are saved by FAITH and NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast" So you need to take this man centered theology and curb it. There is none who are good. No good Muslim, Jew, Christian, none. This is precisely why we need a savior. I am really interested in your reply to the previous question of just what it would take for you to believe? How much proof is enough proof? And like Ojeen said, faith a God implanted gift. We only have faith because God gave it to us. Just keep in mind that there is nothing man can do to please God by our works. I ask that if you read any book in the Bible at this point in your skepticism, read the book of Romans. Also, I did reply to your "what about the jungle guy" of course you won't like the reply, but show me a verse in the Bible that says otherwise. John_ made a very good point, never do we see ingnorance saving anyone. The problem with man is, he wants to make God in his image. God wouldn't be just if he didn't save that man in the jungle, but you just said earlier that we could not even begin to explain the complexity of God's mind, let alone you want to say that God wouldn't do this or that? How do you know God wants to save that man in the jungle? Couldn't God send a missionary to preach to him? We know what we know from scripture and according to scripture, I can give you a much better understanding of God than your questionable theology. I have to be honest, in everything that you said, it has no grounds to stand, only mans theology. *Isaiah 55:8 reads *"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than yours" So again, we could not possibly know why God does not save this "jungle man" Also, don't forget, we were created for HIS glory, not ours. Does not the potter have control of his clay? I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but the subject of the matter is just a very passionate one. Please Sammie, get on your knees and ask God to reveal to you what He wants. Pray about everything that you are hearing.

Your brother in Christ

[CHALDEANELVIS]

I did not read page 6 before replying to Sammie's comments so I apologize if I repeated some of the things mentioned. Predesination, I love this topic! As for Ms. Baghdad, Hell is real and people are going to Hell. Some were created to go to Hell. Yes, God loves his children. Also, I'm just going to answer the next question you would were probably going to post. The answer is, if God knows everything, then he foreknew Larry (for ex) would not believe in Christ and go to Hell. My question would be, why did God create Larry if He knew he would just end up in Hell anyway? *:think: *Did Larry have a chance? If so, did God not know the chance Larry would take?

[John_5_24]

John, Romans 9 was directed to the jews because when Paul wrote the letter to the romans it was mainly concerned with the fate of gentiles and he was trying to show the unversallity of Jesus! he did not touch on jews till chap. 9 of romans and u can look this up in any Bible, their are other reason to this that i have to restudy this issue again, and plz forgive me for my inadequate supply of information. *

TULP is intresting as well but i dont like to adopt it as a way to see predestination becuase it contradicts things like free will and origin of evil/temptation (a whole other subject). *But, the way that calvin concevied predestination gave rise to political ideologies and corrupted the "ways of seeing" of people. *for example, *it gave rise to things like "manifest Destiny" as a form of political ideology to earily america. *As Max Weber said, and i totaly agree with him, calvin's Predestination gave rise to capitalism in the western world, how? people saw that accumlation of wealth as a sign that one is "predestined" by God to go to heaven and u can see the point. *God bless and PEace

Ojeen, Paul actually mentions the Jews at the beginning of chapter 3 and many who do not accept the total depravity of man claim that this chapter is as well meant to describe jews and not all people.

On the application of TULIP. *I would certainly agree that the theological position of Calvin has at many times been misapplied and is misunderstood, but that does not take away from how Biblically valid his position is.

[ojeen1981]

God bless you elvis and everything u said is well articulated and i totaly agree with u

John, plz forgive me, but we are going to a deep theological path and ill have to find some time to email u my thoughts and id love to hear yours as well. *I dont wanna write anything on here to confuse people...God bless...peace

[sammiedebull]

wow, you people are hard headed, its not even funny how one-sided you are in your posts via religon, you are taking everything literally.

about believing, you asked me what it woiuld take forme to believe? I do believe, That has never been the arguement, you belief is that no matter what happens, as long as you believe that "jesus christ is you lord and savior" than you are ok.

Its no wonder that this extremism has gotten us to where we are in this world today. You have a group which are muslims who think they are right, a group of jews who think they are right, a group of christains who think they are right. *OK, FINE, juts let it BE!, How many times do i need to repeat that its human nature to think you are the best race, the best gender, the best religion, you have the best culture, thats human nature, i accept that. I am very very very sure that you guys are the minority as were the people who flew in to the building on sept 11th. They believed the same way you did, they had the mind set that they are the best, they have the best religion, they have the best following, even though they flew into building and killed 3000 people that they think they will go to heaven.

Also stop quoting from the bible, it does not get you anywhere.

THIS WHOLE POST AND THREAD IS NOT WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IN GOD OR A SPECIFIC RELIGON, IT IS WHETHER YOU TAKE THE SCRIPTURE LITERALLY, WHETHER YOU THINK OTHERS CAN GO TO HEAVEN. TO YOU EXTREMIST OUT THERE WHO FOLLOW EVERY WORD LITERALLY YOU HAVE NO BASIS FOR YOUR ARGUEMENT. IF EVERYONE FOLLOWS EVERYWORD LIETERALLY, PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT WOULD HAPPEN! I WOULD NOT EVEN START TO IMAGIN, ACTUALLY HUMAN KIND ITSELF WOULD NOT SURVIVE.

[sammiedebull]

Just always remmber that God is forginging, also its obvious that no matter what you do you will not be prerfect.

People, please, go read previous topics on such conversations before you make people who participated in those topics repeat them selves on the basics.

[ojeen1981]

their is no such thing as to follow something "literlly".

What i do, and i think john and elvis likewise, is take a verse from the Bible, see its contexts in the chapter, how it relates to the over all theological Biblical teachings, the histoircal underpenings assoicated with it...and then follow it.....u can not simply take a verse out and just say, HEY LETS FOLLOW THIS!! THATS WHAT U SAY FOLLOWING LITERLLY..thats not wht i do..peace

[renee]

renee you punk :)

If I see an opportunity I take it. *;)

[sammiedebull]

ok, the bible says kill witches and gays, the quran says take a gay guy and throw him off the highest building. are you going to do that :)? anyway, its not worth going on and on. you guys are extremist :)

Nice conversation though.

God is forgiving!!!

[Teffo]

sammie i agree with you completely...

and i know it seems redundant that i am saying this...but i just agree with you so much!

[sammiedebull]

Great, thank God we have people who are not extremist and open minded!!!

You have to keep your mind open, follow your religion, be good, do your best and respect others.

God is forgiving!

teffo, your my new pal ;) sorry jerkface, im gonna have to take her away.

Joking :D

[UmiSayz]

the quran says take a gay guy and throw him off the highest building.




I dont recall reading that part? Show me where it states that.

[ojeen1981]

sammie, with all do respect, and i respect your postion so much, but please please, dont throw around words like extremists and "open minded" like that. *I think u have a diff. conception of what an extremists is what being open minded is and what "literal" all mean....plz let me know your definition for those terms or how u conceive them.

[an]

Also AN, do you see what you did to the board :) everyone is crazy now :)

Good Topic :)


Yes sammie I know what i have done.

Maybe it is time for people to back to the churchs and visit our aboona=(priest in chaldean) and have faith as i see so many losing

[sammiedebull]

Umi, simple good search, check it out.

http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?q=%22islamic%20law%22%20%2Bgays&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wg

also, again, the arguement is not whether i agree or disagree with this, its whether to take things written in scripture with todays social environment. Do i agree with the gay lifestyle? NO, but does that mean im gonna go around and kill gays? NO!!!, its a free country, they can do what ever they want as i am not judge and GOD will judge them when the time comes.

[CHALDEANELVIS]

Sammie, you put up a good fight, but I'm going to have give you your answer now. You say that as "Bible following Christians" we need to kill gays, witches, unbelievers, etc. Well, I simply say that if one is under Law, they are to do those things, but Christ is the end of the Law. Romans 10:4 says.. "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." and since He is the End, the Mosaic Law is no longer binding to those who believe the gospel (death, burial and resurrection) and are baptized as Mark 16:15-16 says. It says in Colossians 2:11-15 that we are circumcised by Christ and he has nailed to the cross the regulations and written code. *I know you said you no longer want to see Bible verses, but how did you expect me answer your Bible questions outside of the Bible? These are the answers you were looking for. I can provide more, but it isn't necessary. Since Christ set the New Covenant, the law was pinned the cross. Please put an end to those "IF" questions concerning the OT. Now, I want to ask you a question. Where do you think you are going to go when you die? Also, you say that everyone walks by their own faith, as humans we all think we're right, etc, etc. How many religions have a prophet that fulfilled prophecies that were written 900 years prior to his life and death? Do you realize that for a man to fulfill all of the prophecies that were written that Jesus fulfilled, the odds would take you a whole day just to write out those zero's! It's like hitting the Winfall twice a week for the rest of your life! It's like finding a needle that fell out of the sky! I can provide for you all of the prophecies that were written and later fulfilled if you'd like. I think you'll find it quite intriguing. I know what you might be thinking at this point, how do we know the Bible wasn't written all at once! A giant Hoax! Well, I thank God for archaelogical evidence that I challenge you to look at, especially the 1947 Dead Sea Scrolls that were dated back to the third century B.C.E. to 68 C.E Well Sammie, I look forward to your response. My last question, did you pray? Did you ask God with a sincere heart to reveal to you the truth? Your brother in Christ

[CHALDEANELVIS]

http://www.crystalinks.com/dss.html

Here is a very indepth look at the Dead Sea Scrolls. It shows pictures of the origin, the actual scrolls and much, much historical information. I challenge anyone who agrees with Sammie to take a look at this for themselves. This is just an appetizer of the extreme proof for Christianity. Thank you and God Bless

[Samuel]

http://www.crystalinks.com/dss.html

Here is a very indepth look at the Dead Sea Scrolls. It shows pictures of the origin, the actual scrolls and much, much historical information. I challenge anyone who agrees with Sammie to take a look at this for themselves. This is just an appetizer of the extreme proof for Christianity. Thank you and God Bless

Excellent Post ChaldeanElvis :applause: This board needs more Christians and *wholesome topics instead of all the 'fvckable or not" type topics that proliferate on this board. God bless you and keep up the good work ChaldElvis! :applause:

Yes. *Definitely. *Because the only two non-christians that confront you have become a HUGE threat to your egos. *

For every non-christian opinion, you'll need 1000 christian cry-babies to cite something irrelevant out of the bible.

[Anonymous]

Man, you have alot of hostility! Just admit that you hate Christians Samd!

[Samuel]

By the way, I have taken the initiative to post some links that prove "undisputedly" that the Quran is the word of Allah himself.


http://www.submission.org/miracle/proof.html

http://groups.msn.com/AHMADIMUSLIMCIRCLE/theproofofthequran.msnw

http://www.missionislam.com/science/index.htm

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Miscellaneous/Philosophy_Religion/Q_20919712.html

Proof that Christianity is a scam:

http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm


In conclusion... i have "proven beyond a doubt" that Islam is the religion of choice.

[rudy]

By the way, I have taken the initiative to post some links that prove "undisputedly" that the Quran is the word of Allah himself.


http://www.submission.org/miracle/proof.html

http://groups.msn.com/AHMADIMUSLIMCIRCLE/theproofofthequran.msnw

http://www.missionislam.com/science/index.htm

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Miscellaneous/Philosophy_Religion/Q_20919712.html

Proof that Christianity is a scam:

http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm


In conclusion... i have "proven beyond a doubt" that Islam is the religion of choice.So by posting Islamic web sites for us to read. You mean to tell me you just proved that Christianity is a scam? Here is what I did and I encourage you to do the same. I heard both sides of the argument and made my own discussion. I did not become rich or popular when I Accepted Jesus Christ. From what I have been told is that Islam is supposed to be a realign of peace. You don’t show any of this by always attacking someone for posting a Bible verse. I would just simply ask you to com down my friend. And try to see things from a different perspective. Thank you and God Bless.

[ojeen1981]

samd, this is idiotic, u think its like a scientific method to prove something like this????

i can tell u have never read a line of the Bible, or a line of the koran...your just here to antagonize people....

go read something first then give me some thoughts, then ill respect wht u have to say, dont just post site...peace

[sammiedebull]

dont pick on samd, he is opinionated!

[UmiSayz]

dont pick on samd, he is opinionated!


^co-sign^

[UmiSayz]

From what I have been told is that Islam is supposed to be a realign of peace. .


It is. It also means the perfect way of life.

[sammiedebull]

Pretty much all religions are about peace and good life and so on, all have the core values but you always have extremist all all fronts who basically hijack the religion and follow scripture literally as an excuse to justify their actions.

[Samuel]

samd, this is idiotic, u think its like a scientific method to prove something like this????

i can tell u have never read a line of the Bible, or a line of the koran...your just here to antagonize people....

go read something first then give me some thoughts, then ill respect wht u have to say, dont just post site...peace


It seems as though you [consciously] missed my point in order to recognize my efforts as 'idiotic.' *My intention was to prove a similarly transcendentalist religion such as Islam, in the manner that Elvis attempted to prove Christianity. * *While my application of science, history and liturgy were dismissed, Elvis' were applauded. *Your critique here hardly involves the method used; rather the objective sought. *Had I supplemented the Christian related links Elvis originally provided, I doubt there would be any contention on your part. *It isn't a matter of what extent I've read this -or-that. *It's about your "academic [dis]honesty" (whether you want to regard the idiocy you spew as 'academic' is another question) when you attempt to objectively gauge religions respectively amongst one another, and assert ones validity over the other.

[ojeen1981]

my point proven samd, u never read a world of the Bible or the Koran

[ojeen1981]

I disagree with you Sammie

While at the superficial level one may deduce that all religions share similar virtues (which is true), when one studies world faiths, one will unveil paramount differences. *Let me share with you one of the most important difference between Christianity and other world faiths. *While other world faiths preach that our good deeds (such as being good and doing good works) will attain eternal life, the Bible is quite explicit that our good works do us no good and this is why I became convinced to become a Christian because I saw that Christianity sees the flaw of the sinful human nature and that we can not be freed from our chains of sin by our good works, we need something else.

Now Sammie, u keep saying “extremists”…let me give u an example to illustrate what this word is….The social-political philosophy of Karl Marx (which I love almost everything about it) was never manifested into a political constra as Marx envisioned it. *Instead, it was perverted into political leader’s own conception and utilized for political gains. *When the western world thinks of the word “communism” they are really thinking of “Stalinism” and the perversion that Stalin did to communism left a negative impact on the western world. *

Likewise, Religions can be taken and perverted for political purposes. *An example of this is the Crusades when the Catholic Church used the Bible to mobilize the masses to fight, and let’s not forget about indulgence. *Likewise, the puritans who came to the new land committed genocide on those native Indians who did not want to follow their wishes by using the Bible to justify what they were doing. And today, before our eyes, we see osma bin ladin using the Koran to mobilize the masses for his own political gains. *

The reason why I love Karl Marx is because I compared and contrasted what Stalin did with communism and the way Marx envisioned it, and I saw TOTAL different thing between the two. *

Apply this method to what the crusaders did, what the puritans did, what the right winged Baptists who hold political office in this country do….go back to your Bible and see if all this is Biblically based…likewise, do the same thing with Osma Bin Laden, see if what he is doing is actually found in the Koran. I think after u did this study u will see the big difference between (especially) the Koran and the Bible…peace

[sammiedebull]

I have to say i agree with what samd wrote above.

[sammiedebull]

Basically from all your wote in this thread which is a heck of a lot, i come to thee fasts from your posts :

1) You think and believe that only christains can go to heaven no matter how good if a person the jew or muslim was.

2) You believe that the only way to heaven is if you believe that "Jesus was the lord and savior".

3) You believe that even the most sinful christian will go to heaven befor a jew or muslim because he believes in christ as his lord and savior.

4) Your views are of extremism.

5) If there was no laws against killing gays ow witches, im sure you will be the first one in line because you take things in scripture literally.

6) You read every line literally, that is insane, the world would be over if everyone did such a thing!

[sammiedebull]

I would bet that samd can read them both and understand the meaning behind both, you see, he will read and question, try to figure out what it means and whay its saying that and try to get the right idea. you on the other hand just read and take the words literally and not get the complete meaning.

[rudy]

Basically from all your wote in this thread which is a heck of a lot, i come to thee fasts from your posts :

1) You think and believe that only christains can go to heaven no matter how good if a person the jew or muslim was.

2) You believe that the only way to heaven is if you believe that "Jesus was the lord and savior".

3) You believe that even the most sinful christian will go to heaven befor a jew or muslim because he believes in christ as his lord and savior.

4) Your views are of extremism.

5) If there was no laws against killing gays ow witches, im sure you will be the first one in line because you take things in scripture literally.

6) You read every line literally, that is insane, the world would be over if everyone did such a thing!Sammie bro listen to what I’m going to say for the 100th time. By believing in God or claming you are a “Christian” WILL NOT GET YOU INTO HEAVEN! As I said before. Your belief In God weather you are a Christian, Muslim and or Jew ext ext. Is not enough. Think about it the Devil believes in God. Right? But we can all agree where he is going to end up. The Bible calls him the “prince of Darkness”. Here is what I’m going to say again it’s putting your faith in the Grace that our Lord Jesus provided on the Cross of Calvary. Repenting of our sins and asking Him to be ruler of our lives. The problem I have with all other realigns is this. What is it that Islam or Buddhism or Judaism or What ever else is out there going to teach me to make my life right with God? A true Christian will know there is nothing we can do to make our lives right with all mighty God. It’s through his Grace alone! God requires payment for sin and we who are full of sin can not provide this only God through his perfect Son did so 2000 years ago. Now we need to put our faith in this and then the Bible says we shall see the Kingdom Of God. This does not mean we are going to stop sinning or gives us a license to sin and not worry about it. But when Christ becomes our Lord and savior than the Holy Sprite lives with in you and will convicted you when you do wrong. *And yes there are a lot of Christian hypocrites out there and they do more harm to the word of God than any Muslim or Jewish group put together has ever done. This is why my faith is not relied upon what people do or say but on scripture alone. I’m not judging anyone or trying to shove my faith down anyone’s throat. But Jesus himself commended us to go and spread the Gospels to All nations. *And if we do not have the desire to see people give their lives to Christ than we probably don’t have Him in ours lives either. Thank you and God Bless.

[sammiedebull]

God Bless.

Again, you are "infereing" that Good Deeds on earth do not count, they do not get you anywhere, that your faith in scripture and the words that "Jesus is your lord and savior" as your ticket to heaven.

I do not believe that God will think this is enough.

Thats my 2 cents,

AS I SAID EARLIER, THIS CAN GO ONE FOR EVER!!!

God Bless and keep an open mind :) Im sure God would want you to challenge it, to keep an open mind, to look at others becaus eI believe God knows that if it survives all the tests and doubts, all the challenges and controversy that at the end you will feel stronger towards it.

[Samuel]

my point proven samd, u never read a world of the Bible or the Koran

There is absolutely no empirical evidence in any of my responses, short of ridiculing "the religious," that should substantively credit your claim. *Further, your observation allows one to undermine its only premise (that i haven't read a word of the bible/quran), based on the fact that my ability to ridicule your religion, depends on, at the very least, a subtle understanding of its principles.

However, It is worthy to note the haste in which you make unwarranted assumptions. *One can only wonder how thought-provoking your justification for any of your other opinions are, since your judgment is overtly short-sited. *

In other words, you suck.

[CHALDEANELVIS]

God Bless.

Again, you are "infereing" that Good Deeds on earth do not count, they do not get you anywhere, that your faith in scripture and the words that "Jesus is your lord and savior" as your ticket to heaven.

I do not believe that God will think this is enough.

Thats my 2 cents,

AS I SAID EARLIER, THIS CAN GO ONE FOR EVER!!!

God Bless and keep an open mind :) Im sure God would want you to challenge it, to keep an open mind, to look at others becaus eI believe God knows that if it survives all the tests and doubts, all the challenges and controversy that at the end you will feel stronger towards it.

Sammie, NO GOOD DEEDS WILL GET YOU INTO HEAVEN. We have gone over this many times now and you don't seem to understand that your working means absolutely nothing. Let me ask you a question, can you tell a dead man to rise up and walk? If you slap a dead man as hard as you can and tell him to wake up, will he wake up? Ephesians 2:1-11 Says we are DEAD in our sins, but God with great love and mercy redeemed us. If someone is DEAD in their sins, no amount of work can make them right with God, they are dead! If God does not pour out His grace and redeem us from our sinful nature, we remain dead and die in our sins. I don't even understand why samd was posting islamic sites up. If you guys really want, I can get very, very deep in the Quran. I have to be honest, I probably know more about the Quran than you and Samd, but thats just my opinion. I have been studying many, many cults and religions. This is my life, this is what I do. Now, since we are stuck on this Islamic, Judiasm, Buddahism, why don't we take a look at it? Let me know which one you want to tackle first. Be prepared, have a Bible and a Quran in hand (or just use the internet) because I promise you are going to be in for a really interesting debate.

[John_5_24]

You people have to admit that a certain aspect of this thread was genuinely funny. *Most everyone shares the same opinion (not happenstance - just an unfortunate occurence prevalent amongst Chaldeans) based on the cushioned context *of "blind faith" (a realm where "anything" goes - so long as you have the proper ancient documentations to back up your fairytale claims). *Your allegiance to your god supersedes all other loyalties. *While that's admirable, I wonder if you realize "your" beliefs are really what your parents shoved down your throats? * More likely than not, had you been born into another faith, your adamance in marrying one who shares that same religion would be just as strong. *So the underlying factor isn't the bible. *It isn't even Jesus. *It's YOU. *You people are stuck on yourselves. *Take an ontological step backwards, and realize that you aren't even all that important. *People (especially if they are more intelligent than you) don't have to change their beliefs, because "so-and-so" was born Catholic.

Sam, I was actually born into a Catholic family and no longer Catholic.

So much for your theory.

[Samuel]

You people have to admit that a certain aspect of this thread was genuinely funny. *Most everyone shares the same opinion (not happenstance - just an unfortunate occurence prevalent amongst Chaldeans) based on the cushioned context *of "blind faith" (a realm where "anything" goes - so long as you have the proper ancient documentations to back up your fairytale claims). *Your allegiance to your god supersedes all other loyalties. *While that's admirable, I wonder if you realize "your" beliefs are really what your parents shoved down your throats? * More likely than not, had you been born into another faith, your adamance in marrying one who shares that same religion would be just as strong. *So the underlying factor isn't the bible. *It isn't even Jesus. *It's YOU. *You people are stuck on yourselves. *Take an ontological step backwards, and realize that you aren't even all that important. *People (especially if they are more intelligent than you) don't have to change their beliefs, because "so-and-so" was born Catholic.

Sam, I was actually born into a Catholic family and no longer Catholic.

So much for your theory.

A theory is meant to predict outcomes. * It doesn't have to always predict them correctly. *It merely has to be 'the best' model. *

Key words: "Most everyone."

Sorry you wont have this occasion to high-five your bible-buddy. * :(

[ojeen1981]

sammie...u have not responded to my post at all...i want your response to be filled with doctrinated information and not some superfical understanding of scritpure, honestly, u call me an extremists, the way i see it is that u r an extremists becuase u refuse to open doctrines and examine them and u only base your thought process on some subjective and very very general outlook...plz answer my post.

samd you are trying too hard to sound "philosophical" and in this is why u failed to make your point and honestly, i have no idea what you're talking about...peace

[renee]

I fear the al qaida. but I fear evangelical christians maybe more.

[Samuel]

samd you are trying too hard to sound "philosophical" and in this is why u failed to make your point and honestly, i have no idea what you're talking about...peace


Speaking of which. *I bumped into my old philosophy professor. *He told me it's his last year at our school. * :x * He's going to teach at MIT! *:shock: *

Anyway, I'm sorry that I didn't meet your standards of what it is to be "philosophical." *HAHAHA.

This coming from a kid who starts a thread about Plato, and falls head first into a pile of shit trying to interpret the concept he proposed. *

I'll tell ya what. *I'll buy you this (http://www.hop.com/), and then after you've mastered it...you trouble that brain of yours with what I have to say. *ya?

[Anonymous]

I fear the al qaida. but I fear evangelical christians maybe more.

Renne, do you see Christians blowing up buildings, torturing and killing innocent civilians? You are just another typical anti-white, anti-christian feminist of many.

[Samuel]

I fear the al qaida. but I fear evangelical christians maybe more.

Renne, do you see Christians blowing up buildings, torturing and killing innocent civilians? You are just another typical anti-white, anti-christian feminist of many.

There's hardly a difference between rocks and shiny helicopters. *While one side has the capability to target and infiltrate the comfort zones of its enemies, and commands a powerful corporate news medium...the other is left with scraps to defend its (equally) retarded cause.

[CHALDEANELVIS]

I fear the al qaida. but I fear evangelical christians maybe more.

You call yourself a Catholic? Let alone you fear man? I fear GOD and only God. Why on earth would you fear Bible reading Christians that believe and preach Jesus Christ? I assume you know nothing about Catholicism.

Please, don't be ignorant and study for yourself.

[Anonymous]

I fear the al qaida. but I fear evangelical christians maybe more.

You call yourself a Catholic? Let alone you fear man? I fear GOD and only God. Why on earth would you fear Bible reading Christians that believe and preach Jesus Christ? I assume you know nothing about Catholicism.

Please, don't be ignorant and study for yourself.

Rock on brother! ChaldElvis you will find that Renee is simply another feminazi who hates God.

[CHALDEANELVIS]

Well, I assume sammie or samd are not willing to have a little debate on why the Bible is the inerrant, only God breathed words we have and not the quran nor any other religion or cult. I don't expect you guys to even know anything about the quran anyway. Peace

[rudy]

Hey hey u guys did you see the picture of the fish I caught? I just had to brag about it. go see it. its under Big fish!! God Bless.

[John_5_24]

A theory is meant to predict outcomes. * It doesn't have to always predict them correctly. *It merely has to be 'the best' model. *

Key words: "Most everyone."

Sorry you wont have this occasion to high-five your bible-buddy. * :(

No high-fives needed, but since there are probably hundreds of millions, if not billions of people who can tell you that they were born into a family of one religion and are now affiliated with a different religion, we can just throw your "theory" in the garbage pile with evolution.

Can I high-five now?

[sammiedebull]

we are here, sorry, some of us are busy and work hard :) I will get back to your posts on the week end.

also leave renee alone, she is a good person, although annoys the heck out of me at times, she is ok, leave her out of it.

[Anonymous]

we are here, sorry, some of us are busy and work hard :) I will get back to your posts on the week end.

also leave renee alone, she is a good person, although annoys the heck out of me at times, she is ok, leave her out of it.

Leave Renee out of it, are you nuts? She always chimes in with nasty comments about Christians and you think we should give her a pass? So many people on this board claim to be Christian, yet at the same time they instantly rush to the defense of renee when she makes awful anti-Chrisitan remarks. You guys aren't Christian, give me a break!

[sammiedebull]

we are a "democratic" board, anyone with any religion, any race, and anything else can come here. If she makes a comment that we dont like, we can fire back but she should not be attached becauyse she made a comment like

"I fear the al qaida. but I fear evangelical christians maybe more."

It some aspects that comment is correct.

Not to say that bin laden and his thugs are not dangerous but one thing that can hurt or bring down this country is from the inside, I HIGHLY doubt it will happen from the outside.

[renee]

I fear the al qaida. but I fear evangelical christians maybe more.

Renne, do you see Christians blowing up buildings, torturing and killing innocent civilians? You are just another typical anti-white, anti-christian feminist of many.

There's hardly a difference between rocks and shiny helicopters. *While one side has the capability to target and infiltrate the comfort zones of its enemies, and commands a powerful corporate news medium...the other is left with scraps to defend its (equally) retarded cause.

The evangelical christian nazis in the United States have all sorts of plans to inculcate their version of christianity into the warp and woof of American life.

Take the Terry Schiavo case. The husband was the legal representative yet they sought to limit his rights to excercize his wife's wishes.

Take the abortion issue. They wish to impose their interpretation of God's will on all Americans regardless of their beliefs. Even Jesus did not force his beliefs on his contemporaries. That's what free will is all about.

Take adult entertainment. They wish to impose their sense of morality at the expense of limiting the First Ammendment rights of the rest of us.

A republican democracy is about protecting the rights of all. You guys want a theocracy, which seems to me, puts you about even with the Taliban.

[renee]

I fear the al qaida. but I fear evangelical christians maybe more.

You call yourself a Catholic? Let alone you fear man? I fear GOD and only God. Why on earth would you fear Bible reading Christians that believe and preach Jesus Christ? I assume you know nothing about Catholicism.

Please, don't be ignorant and study for yourself.

Catholics don't believe in the literality of the Bible. Catholics believe that the Bible is the "inspired" word of God, subject to interpretation. Given the numerous contridictions in the Bible, it's a good thing we look at it that way.

[sammiedebull]

^ I do not agree with renee often, but i will take this oppertunity. ^

[Anonymous]

Catholics don't believe in the literality of the Bible. Catholics believe that the Bible is the "inspired" word of God, subject to interpretation. Given the numerous contridictions in the Bible, it's a good thing we look at it that way.

Hey Renee, this country was founded by Christians. Leave if you hate Christians so much. Go live in some Islamic Al-Quaeda republic if they are so much better. Try spreading your feminist ideology over there!

[John_5_24]

Catholics don't believe in the literality of the Bible. Catholics believe that the Bible is the "inspired" word of God, subject to interpretation. Given the numerous contridictions in the Bible, it's a good thing we look at it that way.

So let me get this straight. *You believe in an allknowing and allpowerful God and that the Bible was indeed inspired by Him, yet you don't think he is able to keep "contradictions" from occuring. *Doesn't sound like you believe God is either allknowing or allpowerful to me.

Sounds like you are spewing more garbage from your aboona that you haven't checked out for yourself.

[sammiedebull]

How is this country founded by christains and we allow strip joints, we allow gambling, that byitself dimisses your claim. The country was founded by christains with the idea of having a free and just country for all. that was the "idea" and NOT to have some "christain republic".

that is a stupid claim you made, if she does nto follow teh countrys extreme right side chritain values that you address than she should leave.

that is terrible logic :) I love when there are 2 sides in a country, even if they hate each other and disagree, it keeps everyone honest!

[sammiedebull]

John, no, what she is saying is that the way people interpret the bible is the way they should follow, she is basically saying you should nto take every word literally, the bible was changed, the bible has gon ethrough many hands, etc.

You simply cannot take every word of every religious scripture literally, its that simple, why arent you killing gays and witches yet? why aren't you in front of abortion clinics picketing, why arent you in front of casinos yelling? you see, you are not even taking the bible literally becaus ethe bible says all these things are wrong :)

[caz]

ok i kind of agree and disagree with u sammie, because i mean we know these things are goin on and its wrong but we gotta remember god is the almighty and he will judge us all one day so we cant judge others when we have fault of our own *:eh:

wat renee said about the bible im sry but i do beleive wat the bible says even if it has changed it shouldnt matter my faith is in god and if that book is wat he sent for us to read and intrust in then thats wat i do, but i stil have my own thoughts and beliefs i dont always have to agree with wat was said but thats the beauty of havin faith u can ask for answers and their givin *:alright:

elvis dude i agree with u , and john about renee not believin in god i dont know if she does or not thats her business but her comments are her two cents i mean u can just pass them thats her view though i dont agree with her but thats her theory *;)

[ojeen1981]

samd , u gotta be the biggest clown ive ever bro! am still trying to figure out what your trying to say or what your points are..I think your are lost bro...you need to hang out with your MIT professor of philosophy allot more if you wanna get philosophical. *

sammie, the Bible was not changed, and their is historical prove for this. *please sammie, i urge u to give me some histoircal basis for all these things u r saying. *and please please, answer my question of my last post...peace

[an]

Catholics don't believe in the literality of the Bible. Catholics believe that the Bible is the "inspired" word of God, subject to interpretation. Given the numerous contridictions in the Bible, it's a good thing we look at it that way.

So let me get this straight. *You believe in an allknowing and allpowerful God and that the Bible was indeed inspired by Him, yet you don't think he is able to keep "contradictions" from occuring. *Doesn't sound like you believe God is either allknowing or allpowerful to me.

[glow=crimson:0f52e7d582]Sounds like you are spewing more garbage from your aboona that you haven't checked out for yourself.[/glow:0f52e7d582] [glow=seagreen:0f52e7d582]( I RESENT THIS COMMENT)[/glow:0f52e7d582]

as i read from your previous posts that you left the catholic faith.

For everytime i could say this and i could be wrong. *Seems as though everytime we lose one of our own to a different religion we get them looking back at us and mocking our aboona. *But yet you don't see us mocking your pastors etc etc.

Have respect for other religions and our religious figures.

[ojeen1981]

Rene, the evanglical right wing christians in this country are doing things that i hate more than anyone on this site, and trust me, no one dislikes their ideology more than i do. *However, i give u the task to see if what they do is Biblical??

While, on the other hand, those states which are based on islamic rule of law..now are they based on the koran??

peace

[renee]

Catholics don't believe in the literality of the Bible. Catholics believe that the Bible is the "inspired" word of God, subject to interpretation. Given the numerous contridictions in the Bible, it's a good thing we look at it that way.

Hey Renee, this country was founded by Christians. Leave if you hate Christians so much. Go live in some Islamic Al-Quaeda republic if they are so much better. Try spreading your feminist ideology over there!

Actually, most of the founding fathers were Unitarian which means they did not believe that Jesus was god or that there is a trinity. Y would I go to an islamic republic, i hate them as much as I hate you.

[Samuel]

samd , u gotta be the biggest clown ive ever bro! am still trying to figure out what your trying to say or what your points are..I think your are lost bro...you need to hang out with your MIT professor of philosophy allot more if you wanna get philosophical. *


i'm sorry you feel that way.

[Samuel]

Catholics don't believe in the literality of the Bible. Catholics believe that the Bible is the "inspired" word of God, subject to interpretation. Given the numerous contridictions in the Bible, it's a good thing we look at it that way.

Hey Renee, this country was founded by Christians. Leave if you hate Christians so much. Go live in some Islamic Al-Quaeda republic if they are so much better. Try spreading your feminist ideology over there!

Actually, most of the founding fathers were Unitarian which means they did not believe that Jesus was god or that there is a trinity. Y would I go to an islamic republic, i hate them as much as I hate you.

While the country was in fact founded by Puritans...it was done so because they were escaping Religious persecution in the Mother Land. *Hence, steps were taken to ensure a society where everyone could enjoy whatever religion they so desired (1st amendment - Free excercise clause). *The dominant American ideology is secular with "frontier values" (not christian ones), and ....resents your overbearing assault on our belief system. *Want a Christian state? *Move to Vatican City.

[caz]

hey mr. smarty pants how about u keep ur smart comments without the name callin so this thread doesnt get locked again because of ppl like u that make smart @ comments like u *:alright: , i find this interesting ppl speakin their minds *now u can do urs too we know u do it annoyingly so do it without name callin * :goofy: *lets see how well u can, try it its good *:mrgreen:

[sammiedebull]

catzino!

[caz]

yes thats the name someone calls me by *:pimp: , wats up

btw u bum i missed talkin to ya today cant wait for the game tonight opps im hijackin this post bassa sammie *:no no:

:mrgreen:

[rudy]

Let me say something if I may? You guys everyone here is throwing around all kinds of topics. Everyone just com down. And take 1 topic at a time. I think speaking about realign is a wonderful thing that should be done with respect to all. Before anyone jumps at someone else for what they said lets all try to do this first (speaking to myself also). 1Why would someone say what they are saying. 2 What would cause them to believe the way they do. 3 where did they get their info. 4 did I provoke them to say something they did not want to say. I can understand why renee would say what she did. I don’t agree with what she said but I do understand why she said it. There are so called Christian out there who do want to force people to believe like them. I do think this is wrong. But renee I would like to ask you this. Do you believe there are liberal groups out there who want to force me to take their side also? For example guys like Hugh Heffner and Larry flint want to make porn so accessible to the younger audience because they know if you can hook them when they are young you will have them when they are older also. Do I have the right to protect my family (or if I had children) from men like this? Without being labeled an extremist. * God bless.

[renee]

For example guys like Hugh Heffner and Larry flint want to make porn so accessible to the younger audience because they know if you can hook them when they are young you will have them when they are older also. Do I have the right to protect my family (or if I had children) from men like this? Without being labeled an extremist. * God bless.

Firstly, I challenge your assertion that Hugh Heffner and Larry Flint want to give what you call porn to children. Children should not be exposed to adult topics and, I believe they would support that.

Nonetheless, let's assume that by guaranteeing Mr. Heffner's and Mr. Flint's First Ammendment rights there is a possibility for your (hypothetical) children to see it (because they could get a Chaldean party store owner to sell it to them, or they can turn on the Playboy channel at their friends' houses, or they can google it on the internet).

I would support your choice that your hypothetical children should not see it and would suggest the following:

1) Make sure your children know your values that this entertainment is wrong (in your eyes) and that you forbid them from watching it.

2) Make sure that you know the friends they hang with and the morals of their parents to be assured that these parents don't subscribe to the Playboy channel.

3) Either don't subscribe to the internet or apply the appropriate filters to prevent the natural curiousity of your sons and daughters to look at sexually arousing pictures.

There, Mr. Heffner's and Mr. Flint's First Ammendment rights are upheld and your right to control the information your children receive is also upheld.

[Samuel]

But renee I would like to ask you this. Do you believe there are liberal groups out there who want to force me to take their side also? For example guys like Hugh Heffner and Larry flint want to make porn so accessible to the younger audience because they know if you can hook them when they are young you will have them when they are older also. Do I have the right to protect my family (or if I had children) from men like this? Without being labeled an extremist. * God bless.

I think you mean Philip Morris (NYSE: MO). *A corporation that pays millions and millions to CONSERVATIVE politicians in lobbying efforts. :)

Sexual temptation exists whether you're young and stupid, or older and "wiser." *Tobacco addictions, on the other hand, are far more threatening to our children.

Damn conservatives. *Pretending that they have values when they're all corrupt a-holes :).


It's ok Rudy. *I'll buy you a beer. *How about a Miller Light, courtesy our friend Philip Morris?

[ojeen1981]

Everyone here seems to be making claims without support. People say the Bible has contradictions, without any support for it, that the founding fathers were Unitarian, with no support, that america's dominat ideology is secular, with no support.

I beg that these claims be given some historical examples to show people in this site the significanc of America's past.

[rudy]

For example guys like Hugh Heffner and Larry flint want to make porn so accessible to the younger audience because they know if you can hook them when they are young you will have them when they are older also. Do I have the right to protect my family (or if I had children) from men like this? Without being labeled an extremist. * God bless.

Firstly, I challenge your assertion that Hugh Heffner and Larry Flint want to give what you call porn to children. Children should not be exposed to adult topics and, I believe they would support that.

Nonetheless, let's assume that by guaranteeing Mr. Heffner's and Mr. Flint's First Ammendment rights there is a possibility for your (hypothetical) children to see it (because they could get a Chaldean party store owner to sell it to them, or they can turn on the Playboy channel at their friends' houses, or they can google it on the internet).

I would support your choice that your hypothetical children should not see it and would suggest the following:

1) Make sure your children know your values that this entertainment is wrong (in your eyes) and that you forbid them from watching it.

2) Make sure that you know the friends they hang with and the morals of their parents to be assured that these parents don't subscribe to the Playboy channel.

3) Either don't subscribe to the internet or apply the appropriate filters to prevent the natural curiousity of your sons and daughters to look at sexually arousing pictures.

There, Mr. Heffner's and Mr. Flint's First Ammendment rights are upheld and your right to control the information your children receive is also upheld. I think the only thing me and you can agree on is we are going to disagree.

[CHALDEANELVIS]

John, no, what she is saying is that the way people interpret the bible is the way they should follow, she is basically saying you should nto take every word literally, the bible was changed, the bible has gon ethrough many hands, etc.

You simply cannot take every word of every religious scripture literally, its that simple, why arent you killing gays and witches yet? why aren't you in front of abortion clinics picketing, why arent you in front of casinos yelling? you see, you are not even taking the bible literally becaus ethe bible says all these things are wrong :)

Sammie, how many times am I going to answer this question! I've held better conversations with brick walls lol. Im just kidding but I am not even going to answer this question again. Rudy answered it and so did I. It is our job to "rebuke those who sin" Only God can open their hearts and minds to the saving words of the Gospel. Amen

[John_5_24]

[glow=crimson:497074418b]Sounds like you are spewing more garbage from your aboona that you haven't checked out for yourself.[/glow:497074418b] [glow=seagreen:497074418b]( I RESENT THIS COMMENT)[/glow:497074418b]

as i read from your previous posts that you left the catholic faith.

For everytime i could say this and i could be wrong. *Seems as though everytime we lose one of our own to a different religion we get them looking back at us and mocking our aboona. *But yet you don't see us mocking your pastors etc etc.

Have respect for other religions and our religious figures.

An,

You are right and I do apologize. *My comment was unneccesary and I ask that you accept my apology.

Let me say very clearly that I have no respect for your aboona as a religious leader, but I was wrong to mock and for that I apologize.

[CHALDEANELVIS]

Where to start! I have selected some comments from multiple posts and I would like to impose my view on them.

1) "Catholics don't believe in the literality of the Bible. Catholics believe that the Bible is the "inspired" word of God, subject to interpretation. Given the numerous contridictions in the Bible, it's a good thing we look at it that way."

Well, this is not new to any of us. As a matter of fact, Catholics don't hold to Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) The Catholic Church uses the famous words that I have heard over and over again "Not everything is in the Bible" This is a terrifying comment. Everything is in the Bible, and as Anthony said, if the Bible is God breathed, it is enerrant and without contradiction. I challenge you to find 1 contradiction in the whole Bible. That's actually blasphemy to say the God is not consistent. It's not your fault, I don't blame you at all. The fact is, I was going to become a priest at one point in my life. I strongly and passionately pursued it. The idea of the insufficiency of Scripture is indirectly taught in every Catholic Church. Yes, every one of them, hence the rejection of Sola Scriptura. I have to assume that you have never read the Bible or you are just going by what the Church teaches. Again, there are NO contradiction in the Bible.

2)"John, no, what she is saying is that the way people interpret the bible is the way they should follow, she is basically saying you should nto take every word literally, the bible was changed, the bible has gon ethrough many hands, etc."

Unfortunately my friend, that is not what she was saying. She literally meant there are contradictions in the Bible, a popular Catholic teaching. Again, I don't blame her, I blame the Church. But Renee, it is your duty to "Test all Things" like our beloved Lord taught us too. And like the Bereans, you must search day and night to see if what people tell you are correct. If you just say "The Bible has contradictions" without ever searching and testing, you will be left with bias opinions. I urge you to read, eat the words of God. I am astonished that we have one book in the entire world inspired and written by our Lord Jesus Christ and yet we say "it has contradictions" The creator of the world does not contradict Himself.

3)"For everytime i could say this and i could be wrong. *Seems as though everytime we lose one of our own to a different religion we get them looking back at us and mocking our aboona. *But yet you don't see us mocking your pastors etc etc."

Well, let me just say that you did not lose one of your own. God chose me and directed me to follow this route and there is nothing I can do when I am sealed with God's grace. I'm glad you noted that "you could be wrong" and believe me, Catholics say horrible things about pastors. Father (Blank) once told a certain Chaldean woman "It is a sin to go to another Church" My family hates pastors. Trust me, the uncomfortable feeling Christians have about priests is the same uncomfortable feeling Catholics have with pastors. So to answer you, yes, we do both mock each other, unfortunately.

4)"Actually, most of the founding fathers were Unitarian which means they did not believe that Jesus was god or that there is a trinity. Y would I go to an islamic republic, i hate them as much as I hate you."

Well, your words have lost all crediblilty with me and probably all of the Christians and other in here for "hating". God said "If you hate someone, you've commited murder" Please provide proof of you statement mentioned above as well.

Also, I really enjoy chatting with you guys but like somebody mentioned, I believe Rudy, we need to take it easy with language and be more loving. I am really getting into chatting with you guys, but please, let's try to be loving. Also, my offer I posted a few times on debating Samd or Sammie on any topic they want, is still on the table. This is for educational and hopefully spiritual purposes.

Your Brother in the Risen and Glorified Christ Jesus.