Is Iraq better off without Saddam ?

[SamIAM™]

Simple Yes or No question.

Considering the current situation, what do you think, *is Iraq better off without Saddam ?



got this from an antiwar website:


Sure, there are only 800,000 Christians living in Iraq, but under Saddam Hussein they were free to practice their religion. Tariq Aziz, a Christian, served in Saddam Hussein's cabinet as foreign minister– something that would never happen in Saudi Arabia, Israel, or any other Middle Eastern country. Today, the Christian churches in Iraq are under attack and Christians are no longer safe. Many Christians have been forced to flee Iraq and migrate to Syria. It's strange that the human rights advocates in the U.S. Congress have expressed no concern for the persecution now going on against Christians in Iraq. Both the Sunni and the Shi'ite Muslims support the attacks on Christians. In fact, persecuting Christians is one of the few areas in which they agree – the other being the removal of all foreign forces from Iraqi soil.

[missbaghdad]

#1 - I'm all for the removal of Saddam. He was a brutal dictator. But if America wants Iraq to be successful they need to stop supporting Israel and liberate the Palestinians. Iraq will continue to be a mess until this is solved. End of story.

Tax funded aid:
From www.sustaincampaign.org: According to the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE), from 1949-2001 the U.S. has given Israel a total of $94,966,300,000.

#2 - the Sunni and Shiia Muslims do not support attacks on the Christians. That's BS. The Shiia Muslims DO NOT support the Salafist Jidadists who are carrying out these attacks. WHY? Because the Salafist Jidadists are carrying out attacks directed towards the Shiia Muslims. So why on earth would they support them? And since when is there a problem between the Christians and the Muslims in Iraq? After the bombings, several (I think 8 or so) Priests and members of the Assyro Chaldean churches met with the Association of Muslim Scholars to show there are no problems between Muslims and Christians in Iraq. *http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/F3C76335-6C7A-46BC-8021-EC8B81DF15F6.htm

The Salafist Jidadist people (Al Qaeda and the extremists) are mostly people who came into Iraq from other countries to incite chaos as part of the insurgency. Our churches were never bombed before! These psycho suicide bombers are trying to incite a civil war

Poor poor Iraq. *:cry: * *:cry:

[missbaghdad]

I would like to add... I would say "Yes" Iraq is much better without Saddam Hussein if America would end its support of Israel and the damn crazy salafist jihadists would leave and find something better to do

:-)

[ojeen1981]

I agree with missbaghadad....

However, we must appeal to the past to understand why Iraq is the way it is today. *Why would America wait after 12 years of sanctions to get rid of Saddam? Why did America target civilians during the first gulf war? Why did America carry out massive bombardment against schools, hospitals, bridges? Why did America only guard oil fields and disregarded museums of Iraq? *It makes u think that this whole thing was really not about the Iraqi government, but was in fact directed towards the intellectual, middle class, and politically conscious Iraqi people. *No one suffered more than the Iraqis for the past 15 years. *It is deliberate to bring Iraq back to the stone age. *

Now, of course, Iraqi Muslims have nothing to do with the extremists who wish to carry out their own political agenda. *I disagree with missbaghdad on her notion that problems will be solved once Palestine is freed. *I feel to see the connection. *One of the down falls of the “bathists” ideology is the notion that Arabs should unite under an umbrella of united interests based on nationalistic feelings. *One of saddam’s many political mistakes was that we funded and helped out Palestinians. *Yes, they are suffering, however, Saddam was to first and foremost help his own people and become a better president himself before helping out others. *If you ask Palestinians today they believe that Iraqis are backstabbers and that Saddam was the “good guy” who had genuine intentions. Bottom line is that Saddam made many political mistakes and was trying to play with the big dogs (America).

[Rita]

I agree with missbaghadad....

However, we must appeal to the past to understand why Iraq is the way it is today. *Why would America wait after 12 years of sanctions to get rid of Saddam? Why did America target civilians during the first gulf war? Why did America carry out massive bombardment against schools, hospitals, bridges? Why did America only guard oil fields and disregarded museums of Iraq? *It makes u think that this whole thing was really not about the Iraqi government, but was in fact directed towards the intellectual, middle class, and politically conscious Iraqi people. *No one suffered more than the Iraqis for the past 15 years. *It is deliberate to bring Iraq back to the stone age.

I have been arguing the exact statement for so long. I'm happy to know someone sees it my way as well.

Iraqis are not in a better state now that Saddam is gone. Sure, Saddam was not the greatest but he did have the people in his control. Terrorists were afraid of him and did not dare to mess with him or his country. The only terrorists that did mess with him was America. It saddens me to see civilians and the American army dying everyday, the people starving and scared for their life, Christians not being able to practice their own religion and a loss of hope that freedom and democracy will one day play a safe role in the country.

[SamIAM™]

I agree with missbaghadad....

However, we must appeal to the past to understand why Iraq is the way it is today. *Why would America wait after 12 years of sanctions to get rid of Saddam? Why did America target civilians during the first gulf war? Why did America carry out massive bombardment against schools, hospitals, bridges? Why did America only guard oil fields and disregarded museums of Iraq? *It makes u think that this whole thing was really not about the Iraqi government, but was in fact directed towards the intellectual, middle class, and politically conscious Iraqi people. *No one suffered more than the Iraqis for the past 15 years. *It is deliberate to bring Iraq back to the stone age. *

Now, of course, Iraqi Muslims have nothing to do with the extremists who wish to carry out their own political agenda. *I disagree with missbaghdad on her notion that problems will be solved once Palestine is freed. *I feel to see the connection. *One of the down falls of the “bathists” ideology is the notion that Arabs should unite under an umbrella of united interests based on nationalistic feelings. *One of saddam’s many political mistakes was that we funded and helped out Palestinians. *Yes, they are suffering, however, Saddam was to first and foremost help his own people and become a better president himself before helping out others. *If you ask Palestinians today they believe that Iraqis are backstabbers and that Saddam was the “good guy” who had genuine intentions. Bottom line is that Saddam made many political mistakes and was trying to play with the big dogs (America).


I agree with you on Saddams mistakes part, however I strongly disagree on your statement: " *It is deliberate to bring Iraq back to the stone age. *" .
I don't understand how would you come to such conclusion ? * * You say they bombed civilians, well let me remind you its freaking WAR. Since when there are things that are off limits in a war ? * When Iran was in a war with Iraq did they target only military targets ? * *Or actually name me another country other than the US that puts emphasis on avoiding non-military targets.

[Rita]

they bombed residential areas Sam. There was no need 4 that. The U.S. had no reason for that and the only excuse they had was that it was a mistake and thought it was a military sight. As smart as our army is, you know that's a lie and no mistake at all.

[KoolEug1981]

that survey is an oversimplification of the political landscape of iraq. *first and foremost, the political situation in iraq is precarious. *the lack of political stability and job markets has contributed to the rise of radical islam. *the us has made it extremely easy for fundamentalists to evoke god's name and recruit hopeless individuals who might view terrorism as a means to vent out their frustrations. *by the way, lets not forget that the us committed the greatest war crime by invading a sovereign country in contravention of UN regulations. *plus this administration has done nothing to ameliorate the dire conditions that iraqis face everyday. *by the way, shias are not known for carrying out terrorist attacks. *the shiites have a penchant for pacifism. *It is Muslims who embrace the wahabi sect who are largely responsible for carrying out these attacks. *these people are usually from saudi arabia.

now i like to comment on the Christian condition in iraq, esp. under saddam. saddam was an arab nationalist. *he endeavored to promote arab nationalism and he did so by homogenizing the non-arab populations (including christians) via secular education. *he went as far as distorting ancient history by claiming that the chaldeans and assyrians of antiquity were arabs. *he also closed down numerous private schools that taught syriac. *why? because he considered teaching syriac subversive and a threat to iraq's political stability. *i do acquiesce to the fact that christians were afforded greater freedom and political integration under saddam. *but this was only because saddam did not perceive them as a threat. *after all, we are a minority who have no political representation, and saddam can hardly afford to grant kurds and shiites more political voice. *tariq aziz joined the baathists cause only after renouncing his christian roots: *he had to arabize his name and deny his syriac ethnicity

[ojeen1981]

I agree with u kooleug. *
Exactly, check out my boo tee

Let me further add that during the 1st gulf war, they not only targeted hospitals and so forth on purpose, but had the chance to overthrow Saddam by helping a Kurdish movement in the North and a Shittie uprising in the south. *Instead of aiding these two political movements, US actually gave its weapons to Saddam and declared a cease fire, waiting for Saddam to simply annihilate these two political uprisings. *In addition to that, by 1990, Iraq had the 4th largest army in the world, Iraqis economy was booming through out the 1980s (each Iraq dinner = 3-4 dollars), Iraq had the world’s 3rd largest
Airline, Iraq was producing PhD’s (3rd most in the world), Iraq was the only country in the middle east to have an educated middle class, *as you can see, the Iraqi people and Iraq’s socioeconomic political landscape today is not like it was. *If you study American foreign policy you will see this common trend that they have done on many other countries through out the world. *My dear friend, to destroy a country, it takes more than just to get ride of its presidency, but u must target its civilians, especially if they are as politically consciousness and intellectual as Iraq’s were. *Thank u

[pfizzles_sister101]

I feel like this is a two way thing, Saddam was *a good man and had morals and ethics up until his sons started to become greedy and stuff, Thats how i personally feel, but he was bad for using weapons on his own people. so ...?

[Randel]

Ok If you simply answer the question "Is Iraq better off without Saddam", then you don't get the full answer.

Iraq is better off without Saddam.
But I believe George Bush is a fool who went about handling the war completely wrong. Ok over 20,000 civilians of Iraq have been documented dead as a result of the war. Think about how are dead and not documented? Now why couldn't the U.S. have organized 1,000 Iraqi citizens to kill Saddam at his next public appearance. Yes innocents would be killed, but it would be much less than how much it is now. You might also say that the country would of erupted into civil war but were is it at now?

[SamIAM™]

I agree with u kooleug. *
Exactly, check out my boo tee

Let me further add that during the 1st gulf war, they not only targeted hospitals and so forth on purpose, but had the chance to overthrow Saddam by helping a Kurdish movement in the North and a Shittie uprising in the south. *Instead of aiding these two political movements, US actually gave its weapons to Saddam and declared a cease fire, waiting for Saddam to simply annihilate these two political uprisings. *In addition to that, by 1990, Iraq had the 4th largest army in the world, Iraqis economy was booming through out the 1980s (each Iraq dinner = 3-4 dollars), Iraq had the world’s 3rd largest
Airline, Iraq was producing PhD’s (3rd most in the world), Iraq was the only country in the middle east to have an educated middle class, *as you can see, the Iraqi people and Iraq’s socioeconomic political landscape today is not like it was. *If you study American foreign policy you will see this common trend that they have done on many other countries through out the world. *My dear friend, to destroy a country, it takes more than just to get ride of its presidency, but u must target its civilians, especially if they are as politically consciousness and intellectual as Iraq’s were. *Thank u


according to the above statement Saddam was better, correct ? *

for those answering, I'm not asking the reasons for the war, I'm simply asking if Saddam was better for Iraq, thats all.

[caz]

i think in a way it was better ppl felt more safe, and the islamic faith was great with the christians and now theres this bridge between the two, i mean theres still some islamic ppl that are great and understandin and lovin towards their fellow neighbors who are christians, but then we have those morons with bin ladin, i mean its insane it never happened with saddam he was veryyyyyyy harsh very i *mean unhuman but he had a control over the criminals on the street like no other person has ever been able to have *:think: *

lets just hope and pray everythin ends good, for everyone and peace comes to those who have been waiting for decades

[ojeen1981]

no, what i am sayng is that Saddam was a clown who hirt and abused his people, did not help them, but was able to ensure political stablity! *America brought Iraq back to the stonge age, didnt care for saddam, both ways, u have a loose loose situation for the only side who suffered, the IRaqi peoople. *

you have to make a distinction between the political reasons and the historical circumstance of iraq, and the people themsevles, this question is dealing with the people,its not asking the political and economic reasons for why so?? so to answer your question, iraqis died during Saddam and as u can see after saddam, but i have faith that we will still survive! *God willing!!

[KoolEug1981]

no not really.....again, the statement is an oversimplification of whats occuring in Iraq. *Iraq deserves a better political system than Saddam's despotism. *It is easy to invoke false dichotomies like saddam or no saddam, whats better for iraq and oversimplify the situation. *Some kurds would claim that Iraq is better off without Saddam. *But they only constitue only 20% of population. *Most Christians falsely beleive that they enjoyed greater political integration under saddam. *Again, we only make up 5% of the population. *Shiites, who constitue 60% of the population, envisage a better future for Iraq without Saddam. *The main issue at hand is constructing a political system that assuages the concerns of all of Iraq's diverse ethnic groups. *Unfortunately, Iraq at the moment is experiencing civil strife due to the rise of secatrian politics. *the us played an indenspesible role in exacerbating the situation in showing favortism towards the kurds and shiites and alienating the Sunnis. *Iraqis must *establish a political structure that allows poliitcal candidates to be elected on basis of political affilation and not ethnic affinity.

[maxpower]

Iraq Is Not Better Off Without Saddam.... Simple Said, Simple Thought Off, And For Those Who Wish To Argue With Me About This Matter, And Tell Me He Was A Killer, And An Evil Person.. Please Keep That Away From Me.. *If There Is Anybody That Knows About Saddams Era, And How He Viewed Things, And Why He Did That, Its Gotta Be Me, And Why? Because If You Read Previouse Forums, Then You'll Know Why.

Rest My Case

[ojeen1981]

please max power, I would like to know, if its not much trouble, what is the hsitory and political ideology of Saddam was??

[maxpower]

your asking the wrong question... why do you want to know the history and political ideology of saddam? but I'll answer it in a few words

the CONS
He is an arrogant son of a bitch, he thinks he is God, he thinks that he is a profit sent from heaven to be a ruler... *

the PROS
He controled IRAQ like it suppose to be controled. He had sunni, shiite, that all wanted different political views, and wanted to control the country, particulary the shiite, which is whats happening now.

flash back, IRAN_IRAQ war was about that, because the USA didnt want iraq to be controled by shiite, so they provided us with the goods, power, inteligence, to defeat iran, once that was over, USA told us, thank you, now sit tight and shut the **** up, SADDAM HUSSIEN is not a puppet, he refuse to be a puppet, he told them, no **** you i do what ever i want, then they realized who they dealing with, the told kwait to pull the crazy dump plan to test saddam, it worked, HE invaded, they went in, and started the GULF WAR, by then it was all a plan to take him out. During iran iraq war, i remember living a normal life, during the sanctions on iraq, i lived a normal life, we had a normal life...

SO WHY ALL THE SUDDEN THE SHIITE CONTROL MOST OF IRAQ'S POLITICAL SEATS? WHEN IT WAS A PROBLEM FOR THE US 20 YEARS AGO!!! GEEE I WONDER WHY?

[ojeen1981]

Maxpower, what u said is partially correct, but is an oversimplification of Saddam’s history. Saddam was first aided by the CIA to overthrow my hero Abdul Kareem Qassem, and after about 5 bathists governments, Saddam’s uncle got into power. *During this reign of political era, Saddam controlled everything that was going on in Iraq. *Finally Saddam takes power in 1978 and roles Iraq. *Now, when he took power, he did some good things and some bad things. *The good things he did was he elevated Iraq’s economy to the sky (which was easy to do thanks to our oil fields), the bad thing he did is he immediately killed all political oppositions. *Now, we must understand what the ideology of Bathism to understand who Saddam was. *Bathism believes in a unified Arab world. *What makes one Arab? To be an Arab is a feeling that one possesses. *So, u can see what this nationalistic ideology leads to. *Saddam tried to Arabise Chaldeans/Assyrians and kurds. *I myself is the product of that, I don’t know how to speak Syriac because Saddam closed down school in northern iraq that teach syriac. *What I am simply saying is that the diversity of Iraq deserves a much better political system and a much more open minded and clever political leader. *Saddam, to me, was a puppet and a clown, no other way would the US have gone into Iraq like they did in the last 15 years than without the help of Saddam’s stupidity.

[maxpower]

Maxpower, what u said is partially correct, but is an oversimplification of Saddam’s history. Saddam was first aided by the CIA to overthrow my hero Abdul Kareem Qassem, and after about 5 bathists governments, Saddam’s uncle got into power. *During this reign of political era, Saddam controlled everything that was going on in Iraq. *Finally Saddam takes power in 1978 and roles Iraq. *Now, when he took power, he did some good things and some bad things. *The good things he did was he elevated Iraq’s economy to the sky (which was easy to do thanks to our oil fields), the bad thing he did is he immediately killed all political oppositions. *Now, we must understand what the ideology of Bathism to understand who Saddam was. *Bathism believes in a unified Arab world. *What makes one Arab? To be an Arab is a feeling that one possesses. *So, u can see what this nationalistic ideology leads to. *Saddam tried to Arabise Chaldeans/Assyrians and kurds. *I myself is the product of that, I don’t know how to speak Syriac because Saddam closed down school in northern iraq that teach syriac. *What I am simply saying is that the diversity of Iraq deserves a much better political system and a much more open minded and clever political leader. *Saddam, to me, was a puppet and a clown, no other way would the US have gone into Iraq like they did in the last 15 years than without the help of Saddam’s stupidity.

I respect your opinion with high regards. Ojeen I personally dont like talking politics to people who dont see the big picture. *I want you to respect the FACTS that I have reasons to say what i say, i dont speak about something just BECAUSE... my reasons are again 1. am a political Science Major, 2. I lived in iraq, and 3. My dad was in a High Rank postion within Saddam's entourage... So i gathered all these facts from life experince, and few from book knoweldge, I DONT LISTEN, AND READ THE MEDIA TO COME UP WITH OPINIONS, OR MAKE A CONCLUSION REGARDING A FAMOUSE FIGURE SUCH AS SADDAM

TIME FOR A *:smoke:

[ojeen1981]

i applaud u for that, I have a BA. in poli Sci. and was born and raised in Iraq. *My father was the president of the big hospital in iraq. *I respect your views, and i agree,we need to see things from the bigger picture. I urge u to do a more objective and in depth study of Iraq, if you dont mind!! Take care bro..peace

[Senalko]

There is no Bigger Picture in the world than Living your everyday life with Saddam and his Thugs to understand their way of life and what they were all about....

We need to be careful and not follow the Arabic mentality of always speaking of Higher Conspiracy theories and blaming everything on America/Isreal.....

I wouldnt Dare put any Blame on anyone else than Saddam himself, even though i know my facts and we all know he was a product of the CIA...

that doesnt change the Fact that it was him and his Thugs who did the Damage and Reuined our Lives.....

There is no way i can detial for u here the things that i have personally witnessed or been through under his Regime, but all i can say WE were dealing with an Animal who does not deserve to be labelled a human what so ever

[ojeen1981]

Senalko, i agree with you. *Saddam was an SOB, and he tormented his people. Am sure you know all the US involvement in giving rise to Saddam's dictatorship power. *Like i said eariler, the only side that suffered is the people of Iraq.....you seem to know your stuff. *much thanks..peace

[maxpower]

ojeen, thank you for your tips, maybe one day, but for now, i need to concetrate on better things than iraq, iraq is in the past, and would like to keep it in the past for a while, good depating with you, you seem you know ur stuff as well...

[UmiSayz]

MissBaghdad- How do you know if its the "foreign terrorists" thats doin all these bombings? I only hear these things in the media. My guess would probably be the Mossads (Israeli Agents) instigating between the Muslims and Christians and Shias and Sunnis. Saddam was NOT FOUND IN THE HOLE! As I stated that before in my previous post way before they bought this up in the media. They caught him at a friends house while reading the Quran. His gun was away from him and thats why he didn't fire the weapon. Would he fire it if he had the grip on it? I dunno? I still dont see ABU ZARQAWI. Bogey man is all it is. I love Saddam. I dont care what anyone says about him. In this world u're either hated on or you get loved...no matter what kind of person you are or who you are. Its just reality ppl.

[missbaghdad]

During iran iraq war, i remember living a normal life, during the sanctions on iraq, i lived a normal life, we had a normal life...

Max, you are the first person I have ever heard say that. Maybe your experiences are very different because your father was part of Saddam's entourage. I think you saw Iraq in a different way than the average Iraqi.

It is true that Iraq was a safe place, and you could stay out until 2 or 3am and feel safe. But Iraqis were not free! Maybe there was safety but there were no personal freedoms... people were monitored day and night, people feared their neighbors or their own family members would turn them in for saying or thinking the wrong thing about Saddam or the Baathis, phone lines and homes were bugged, people were forced to join the Baath party or they would be considered part of the opposition even if they had nothing to do with politics or didn't even care about it. And those people were taken to prison or hung. That's the bad side of Saddam. And he did many good things too. Sometimes I even feel sorry for the bugger when I see him on the news but then I always remind myself of the bad things him and his sons did.

Many people suffered so much because of the sanctions. And I think ojeen and Rita bring up such a powerful point - why put the Iraqi PEOPLE (not Saddam or the Baathist regime) through the sanctions and THEN invade the country and destroy libraries, hospitals, theaters, etc. I think sanctions are the worst thing to do because the government barely suffers, it directly hurts the people.

[UmiSayz]

Women in Iraq had freedom under Saddam.

[maxpower]

AND DO IRAQIS HAVE ANY FREEDOM NOW? God damn it, barbers cant even cut hair, they are getting killed because they are cutting hair that resembles western styles, they cant shave their customers face, teachers cant teach, they get killed, doctors cant help the sick ones, because they are aiding the americans. for god sake what focking freedom are you talking about... i rather ****ing kiss a dictators ass and live well, and happy, then live the way iraqis live now.... and i dont wana hear any of this now, because its over direct your comments to others.

[CAMPPAIN]

Iraq Is better w/o.

Don't you guys talk to your p[arents and hear stories of what they went through? I'm pretty sure if I was still there after I was a year old I would have been dead not to far after that.

Secondly, no mattter what news you post those are all opinions, and no one will no for sure.

Humans are easily subjective, so there are no fact's, just opinions on your surrounding thoughts and enviorment. So there is no clear cut yes or no, it just depends on your outlook and current situation.

Corporal, USMC


*edit* And has anyone watched the documentary "Voices of Iraq"?

[Senalko]

Women in Iraq had freedom under Saddam.

what a Load of Garbage..... i am not surprised to see some christians in iraq Defend that son of an Animal and try to come up with different excuses....


You are free to state your opinion and i respect that opinion, but when u try to make your opinion a mere fact, then u have Steped over the line...

i havnt taken any of your comments so far to heart, but i am telling u mate, You are pushing the Botton here, so enough of Your Crap....

i dont know what your history or family history is, so i am not goona judge you on anything, but all i know is that u have got to be so F*** ashamed of yourself that u have the Guts to come here and say i lived a free life in iraq-iran war and i lived a free life under the Sanctions Where the truth is, every F*** single iraqi Family had a loss of one form or another, and every Child in iraq paid the price for the Sake of F**** Palastine......

Yet again, i come and say, people dont be surprised, some Chaldeans lived a Luxury life under Saddam.... Saddam gave them the licence for the Liqor Business and they Florished and became Millioneers.... but sadly they lost their Dignity and lost their thameer to the extent that they have the obbessity to Insult every Decent iraqi that have suffered and every mother that has lost a son...

and i wuldnt be surprised to find a whole load of them living in MI right now, and crying over the Fortunes that they lost when saddam was gone.. well Cry me River.......

Armi, next time u wana say something, make sure it has some Substance to it, not some kind of Rubbish, and if you realy did live the normal life your telling us about, then keep it to yourself and have respect for those that lost everything and i mean everythingggggggg just cuase they said NO to that Animal and his Thugs

[maxpower]

:shock: *:shock: *:shock: *:shock: *:shock: *:shock: ..

SENALKO.. MAN YOU GOT ISSUES..PEOPLE ARE PRODUCTS OF THEIR DECISIONS... SO JUST BECAUSE YOU, OR YOUR FAMILY CHOOSE A PATH IN THEIR LIFE THAT LED TO WHAT YOU FEEL TODAY IS DIFFERENT FROM THE PATH OTHERS CHOSE, DOESNT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO COME UP WITH OFFENSIVE LINES LIKE THAT..

SENALKO, YOU ARE NO ONE, SO LIVE YOUR LIFE, AND FORGET THE PAST THAT MADE YOU SHOUT THESE OFFENSIVE LINES.. YOU OUGHT TO BE A RETARD FOR TAKING THESE FORUMS TO YOUR HEART.

NOW FROM PREVIOUS POSTS, I KNOW YOU SEEM LIKE A SMART FELLOW, BUT YOU GOT TO CALM DOWN, AND SLOW YOUR HORSES.

[Senalko]

oh i am Calm mate, who said i was Shouting *:mrgreen: *:mrgreen:

But this is not about a Forum or the way we choose a path in life, its about Morals and unforutnately i take my morals wherever i go, wether its Forums or having a discussions at a cafe....

as for what i said, the Strong langaue is just to show the people here the Truth, not that i need to cuase most of us lived back there and know what i am talking about, if you choose a way of life, like the dedicated Love that armi has for Saddam , then you gota expect to be Challanged..... and thx mate, i got no issues but i will give it when its due :)

[maxpower]

good to know that..... if you got any more stories hit me up... gotta go to work... peace

[missbaghdad]

AND DO IRAQIS HAVE ANY FREEDOM NOW? God damn it, barbers cant even cut hair, they are getting killed because they are cutting hair that resembles western styles, they cant shave their customers face, teachers cant teach, they get killed, doctors cant help the sick ones, because they are aiding the americans. for god sake what focking freedom are you talking about... i rather ****ing kiss a dictators ass and live well, and happy, then live the way iraqis live now.... and i dont wana hear any of this now, because its over direct your comments to others.

YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!! I mentioned the same story in a post right here: http://www.chaldeanchat.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4207&highlight=taliban or:

Guys I have been avoiding the news in a pathetic attempt to avoid reality. Then today at the car dealership I was really bored so I read the newspaper. One huge article was about how the barbers and hairstylists in Iraq are being threatened to not shave ANY men's beards or cut their hair because that is against Islamic tradition.

"They went to all the barbers," said one threatened hairstylist, Ali Mahmood, 28. "They told them not to shave beards. They told them no sideburns. No American styles. They told them none of this or they would die."

Can you believe that they actually shot and killed barbers and innocent people in barbershops? Imagine just waiting to get your hair trimmed and then being shot up with bullets from a machine gun fired by some terrorist.

They are trying so hard to enforce strict "Taliban-like" militant conservatism. *It's so disgusting. Iraq now is a breeding ground for sick terrorists.

Is this ever going to end??? Would this have been avoided if the Americans didn't dismantle the Iraqi military? This is so f*d up and scary. I feel so sorry for the poor Iraqi people.

I wish this war never happened

And it's a horrible horrible MESS right now. But I mentioned the lack of freedom because it was never dandy for many people under Saddam like you mentioned. That was my point... that you saw things differently. Not wrong, but just different.

If it was... I know we'd still be there. Why would anyone want to leave such a wonderful beautiful country if they don't have to?

My main point is that if we can get rid of those psycho killers (the extremists... y'all know who I'm talking about)... and stabilize the country enough so most foreign troops can withdraw, THEN things will Inshallah be better for Iraqis.

[UmiSayz]

Senalko- Since you're calling me out...let me know how women in Iraq are getting treated NOW? Women under Saddam can own businessess, work, teach...they have just about equal rights as men do ..just as my religion teaches us. I dont know why you're getting all defensive.

[Rita]

Actually, my parents like Saddam. They never lived in Iraq during his regime because they had moved to America before he even came into power but if you look at the facts, he did more for our people than any other leader would have cared to do. I have family that lived in Iraq and still lives there to this day. They also feel that Sadaam was much better for the country than it is now. Everyone has their own opinions and their own experience. For Senalko to sit here and curse at people for their opinion is simply wrong. He actually sounds like a dictator himself. If you don't agree with him, then you are wrong and should be removed from society.

Also, whether or not Chaldeans had schools in which we were to only speak Arabic and not Syriac, our language has still survived. I know my language and was born in the U.S. Chaldeans were to only speak and read books in Arabic before Saddaam's time in power. They did not have Syriac speaking schools when my mother and father went to school. If Saddam was secluding our people, he would never have funded us money in America to open up our own Chaldean churches!!

[missbaghdad]

*edit* And has anyone watched the documentary "Voices of Iraq"?

several times, lol... why?

[ojeen1981]

senalko, i see exactly where you are coming from. *
Saddam supressed those people who attempted to overthrow him, or were a threat to his power. *The only reason why Christians in Iraq prospered was because they were not bother ed by Saddam and that’s because Christians constitute a small minority. *Many chaldeans today have the misconception that they lived in freedom in Iraq. *Now to be objective, people in Iraq lived in freedom in relative terms to other neighboring countries, yes that’s true. *Regardless of that, Saddam implemented a system of political ideology which deliberately attempted to erase any ethnicities that exit in Iraq. *And I totally agree with you on the Palestinian issue. One of Saddam’s many political flaws is that he sent money to other Arab nations while his own people suffered under his regime. *To be as objective as possible, Saddam’s Bathist ideology drove him to commit all the stupid things he did, any the people of Iraq, in particular the intellectuals, suffered from his stupidity. *So those who think that Christians had freedom, its true to a certain extant, it happened at the cost of your own very rich history and culture. *

NOTE: *this is why today u see allot of chaldeans who think their ARABS, because their parents were taught in school and on the main stream media of Iraq that all of IRAQIS are ARABS!!! *Iraq is a diverse place, both ethnically and religiously, so it deserves a much better political system.

[missbaghdad]

If Saddam was secluding our people, he would never have funded us money in America to open up our own Chaldean churches!!

See that's what confuses me about him. Does anyone know how this was set up? I mean, did the church go to Saddam and request it from him?

[maxpower]

BELROO7 BE DAM.. NIFDEEEK YA SADDAM.... *:D

a little some some to senalko.. *:lol:

[ojeen1981]

maxpower, thats very offending bro! I cant stand Saddam myself and i try my best to adopt an objective view on the complex political landscape of Iraq's history. But what u just said is very damn offending...

[maxpower]

maxpower, thats very offending bro! I cant stand Saddam myself and i try my best to adopt an objective view on the complex political landscape of Iraq's history. But what u just said is very damn offending...

Ojeen... cant help you there.. i say what i say, its a free country, you dont like it, ignore it...

[Senalko]

BELROO7 BE DAM.. NIFDEEEK YA SADDAM.... *:D

a little some some to senalko.. *:lol:


hehehe you braught back some memories from high school.. we used to have a Blast.... We used to run for our lives and Clime Fences whenever we had to go to a demonstration on the streets to suport saddam... they used ro run after us with a Stick while we shouted bel roo7 bel dam hehehe


people are comparing the Situation now with that of Saddam far too early......what people dont realise is that we are changing history in iraq... a History that extends over 600 years of Tyrany, violence, Coruption and u name it all....

Those same people who had the Luxury life in iraq are the same ones who are resisting Freedom and causing all the problems there....

Rita, i would appreciate it if u give me one good thing that Saddam did for us........its puzzling that peopel make claims when they never lived under his Regime....

The other funny thing is, when we lived under saddam, we did get new Roads, and new infratsructes and somehow good jobs, however people so funnily assume that all these services Came out of Saddam's pockets as if he is done us all a Favor......

IRAQ was a major oil country back then, had Saddam not wasted all of its resources on War, Each iraqi should have had 4 cars, 2 houses,and almost everything would be Free.....

just go and visit some Gulf ountries in UAE and Qatar and u will understand what i mean

[ojeen1981]

yea, I totally agree with you Senalko, what most dont know is that Saddam implemented construction work and plans that were already in the hands of Adul Kareem Qassem for him to do the jobs in Iraq.

[CAMPPAIN]

*edit* And has anyone watched the documentary "Voices of Iraq"?

several times, lol... why?

What was the majorities thoughts on Sadaam?

[maximus]

well from experince as my dad is there right now it isnt as well as he though it would be and just left right now and went to greece but my dad been staying up in north part so mine is no :)

[missbaghdad]

*edit* And has anyone watched the documentary "Voices of Iraq"?

several times, lol... why?

What was the majorities thoughts on Sadaam?

Well many people said they are happy that Saddam is gone. But you can't look at it from that simple of a perspective - the movie is called "VOICES" because it voices many different opinions.

Sunnis have a different perspective than Shiias who were subjected to torture and other harsh controlling methods. Kurds have a big reason to be happy that Saddam is gone. So those viewpoints are reflected in the interviews shown in the documentary. Many people are happy they have received new liberties - like communication with the outside world (internet, cell phones, etc), freedom from constant surveillance, and higher wages, etc. But it just isn't that simple *:think:

The movie shows the atrocities that Saddam committed (mass graves, chemical gassings, brutal beatings and cutting of body parts), which no doubt are sick and horrific. But it's not as simple as saying it's "good" or "bad" that he's been removed from power.

[UmiSayz]

Did you know Talbani and Saddam where friends. Why do you think he opposes death on Saddam? :think:

[Rita]

BELROO7 BE DAM.. NIFDEEEK YA SADDAM.... *:D

a little some some to senalko.. *:lol:


Rita, i would appreciate it if u give me one good thing that Saddam did for us........its puzzling that peopel make claims when they never lived under his Regime....

please re-read my posts and you will know. I never said I loved Saddam but I did say that our people were protected when he was in power. They are getting killed off now just for being different. If he wanted us to be Arabs, he would have brought our churches down so we don't have a place to go to worship God & practice our teachings. He would have tried 2 force his religion on ours like the extremists are doing today. If he wanted Chaldeans to be extinct, he would have gotten rid of the artifacts in the Iraqi Musuem that only portrayed how much Chaldeans played a role in civilization, history, inventions & the world. Instead, we have the U.S. to thank for that. He would not have funded our people to have something of our own in America when asked. He actually had a high respect for our people.

M.B. - I'm sure if you go back to Iraq and let these peoples' voices be heard, you will get many people who have a different opinion. Many of them thought that once the US comes in everything will be better. Now, people are dying daily, there is less food and electricity, there is no control, no safety, etc.

[KoolEug1981]

Saddam was an Arab nationalist who ardently tried to homogenize the non-Arabs of Iraq. *The Kurds were intensely persecuted under his regime, albeit they still enjoyed greater cultural autonomy than their counterparts in Syria, Turkey, and Iran. *During the late 1980s and early 1990s Turkey has enganged in a murderous war in SE Turkey with the aim of stifling Kurdish resistance. * Kurds in Turkey are still called "Mountain Turks". *Turkey has recently granted Kurds the right to brodcast Kurdish radio. *But lets not forget that the sole reason why Turkey is doing this is to enhance its chance of being admitted into the EU. *So, in *reality, Kurds were treated much better under Saddam than they were in Turkey, Syria, and Iran. *But Turkey has immunity because it is an important member of NATO.

Having said this, Saddam was still a despost who maltreated Iraqis. *We deserve a better system than that. *I personnaly want *an Iraqi government that accommodates the needs of Iraq's disparate ethnic groups. *But Iraq is now experiencing civil strife due to the rise of sectarian politics. *The US played an instrumental role in exacerbating the situation by displaying favortism towards the Kurds and Shiites and alientaing the Sunnies.

[missbaghdad]

M.B. - I'm sure if you go back to Iraq and let these peoples' voices be heard, you will get many people who have a different opinion. Many of them thought that once the US comes in everything will be better. Now, people are dying daily, there is less food and electricity, there is no control, no safety, etc.

There are many people who say that. And it's a huge part of their problems. I was just addressing what Campain was saying about them being happy that Saddam is gone. Anyway, that's what I meant by saying it's really complicated and there are issues on many levels.

edit: i think the most common phrase i heard was "mako amaan, mako kahrab3a" (there's no safety, there's no electricity)

[ojeen1981]

the point is that Iraq is that Iraq has a complicated political history, and its got a very diverse different types of people. *The only political system that seems to work for such a political landscape is something that resembles democracy. *As many poli. sci. majors would know, democracy comes from within the people. *Neither does America nor Saddam have good intentions for the collective will of Iraqis. *as stated before, the people of iraq are the only ones to suffer. *if u wanna talk about the politis of this game, well thats a different story. *Was iraq stable with Saddam, yes, but at the expense of the voice of iraqis. *Was iraq rich under saddam? yes, but thats not hard to do with all that oil. *Did christians have freedom under saddam? yes, only in relative terms and at the cost of their own culture. *Was saddam an dumb ass? hell yes, he made numerous political mistakes and got rid of the many intellectuals in iraq. *

this whole argument can be seen from two different perspectives. *One which is subjective, we can ask our parents how they liked or hated life under saddam. *Or two, an objective perspective, by studying the history and politics of iraq and synthesis that with what we hear from our very wise parents. *peace

[maxpower]

ee basa 3ad... moo tala3toooo roo7yy gowaweed... kuss 3arth saddam.. there...

now who got an extra smoke, am out, and going nuts

[ojeen1981]

ok??

[missbaghdad]

what does "BELROO7 BE DAM.. NIFDEEEK YA SADDAM" mean?

[Senalko]

what does "BELROO7 BE DAM.. NIFDEEEK YA SADDAM" mean?


With Our Souls & Our Blood, we Sacrifise Ourseleves for you Saddam :)

[ojeen1981]

i wanna vomit just hearing this

[missbaghdad]

yeah it's scary and sick

[UmiSayz]

No its not.

[missbaghdad]

why not? i would understand if it says "bil roo7 oo bil dem" for IRAQ

but not for a leader

[UmiSayz]

why not? i would understand if it says "bil roo7 oo bil dem" for IRAQ

but not for a leader


Cause each and individual Iraqis are all for themselves. Nobody helps each other. No arab leaders (all of them are cowards) stood up like Saddam. I dont agree with some of the things he did but do know this that this america media demonized him so bad that its hard to believe some of the good things about Saddam. ****ed up huh? The man has heart. When they took him away in chains...he still smiled. That man is raw as they come. I dont care if you hate him or not. I respect him.

[ojeen1981]

dude, Saddam was a clown! no way id give respect for clowns man..the guy didnt know what the hell he was doing. *I agree with missbaghdad, if it said "bil roo7 oo bil dem ya Iraq" now whats what am talking about.

[UmiSayz]

dude, Saddam was a clown! no way id give respect for clowns man..the guy didnt know what the hell he was doing. *I agree with missbaghdad, if it said "bil roo7 oo bil dem ya Iraq" now whats what am talking about.


Thats your opinion.

[missbaghdad]

i would looooooove to interview saddam

[UmiSayz]

i would looooooove to interview saddam


maybe one day when hes in "exile" you can have that chance.

[ojeen1981]

umi, its not my opinion, its a fact, saddam was a clown and i can write u a book on why he was! and please!!!! trust me on this one!

[UmiSayz]

umi, its not my opinion, its a fact, saddam was a clown and i can write u a book on why he was! and please!!!! trust me on this one!


Who are you for me to take your word for it? Write a book? LoL go ahead! That will not convince me at all that hes a "clown." Its your opinion. Theres no one that will support a leader 100% ...i mean no one! No matter how good or bad you are you're not goin to get a full country support.Thats just how it is bro. Theres some ppl that likes Bush and some that hates him. Its like that with every leader, pope, caliphs, managers etc....

[ojeen1981]

listen dude, bush is a clow and so is saddam....I have political and objective reasons for why so. *IF u like saddam, thats fine...i was not objecting to people likeing or hating saddam, i was simply saying Saddam is a clown becuase he had allot of political mistakes and was a thugster who just belived in the world's dumbest political ideology, Bathism. *So if u like him, more respect to u, thats fine ....but if u can sit her and give me some historical proof for why he is not a clown..id love to see it

[UmiSayz]

listen dude, bush is a clow and so is saddam....I have political and objective reasons for why so. *IF u like saddam, thats fine...i was not objecting to people likeing or hating saddam, i was simply saying Saddam is a clown becuase he had allot of political mistakes and was a thugster who just belived in the world's dumbest political ideology, Bathism. *So if u like him, more respect to u, thats fine ....but if u can sit her and give me some historical proof for why he is not a clown..id love to see it


Look i'm not goin to sit here and argue with you. I respect him cause hes a passionate leader. The man has heart and hes strong. And no i'm not liking him cause hes a fellow sunni either so get that out of your heads :roll:

[maxpower]

umi, its not my opinion, its a fact, saddam was a clown and i can write u a book on why he was! and please!!!! trust me on this one!


Who are you for me to take your word for it? Write a book? LoL go ahead! That will not convince me at all that hes a "clown." Its your opinion. Theres no one that will support a leader 100% ...i mean no one! No matter how good or bad you are you're not goin to get a full country support.Thats just how it is bro. Theres some ppl that likes Bush and some that hates him. Its like that with every leader, pope, caliphs, managers etc....

umisayz.... lets write a book me and u.... we call it...umm umm.well i havent figured out a title yet... and the book is gonna be about.. umm umm well dont know yet about what... but the plan is writing a book *:alright:

[UmiSayz]

umisayz.... lets write a book me and u.... we call it...umm umm.well i havent figured out a title yet... and the book is gonna be about.. umm umm well dont know yet about what... but the plan is writing a book *:alright:


We'lek CHEP! LoL ;)

[missbaghdad]

i want to be in your book

OK????????

[maxpower]

umisayz.... lets write a book me and u.... we call it...umm umm.well i havent figured out a title yet... and the book is gonna be about.. umm umm well dont know yet about what... but the plan is writing a book *:alright:


We'lek CHEP! LoL ;)

lool at umisayz... i got a title for it.. lets call it 3uftieees who talks out of their teeez *:lol: *:lol:

[UmiSayz]

LoL

[ojeen1981]

hold on, a fellow sunni??? plz dont tell me u belive he was a devot muslim??
passionate and strong will....this is easy to figure out...u think he had the passion to stand against the west all the way to till the end. *no my friend...Castro did that, Castro is an intellectual , he knoews what he was doing....even though he did some mistakes..but he is not a clown like your boy saddam and bush.

[Senalko]

Our Secret Slogan at our high school days was

" al Balad Naf6ee wol Qa2id 3of6eee "


dont ask me to translate that cuase its impossible loool

[maxpower]

loool... yea i dont see how we can translate that, lool *:think: tell me is ojeen still talking about the topic... lool.. what is the toipc about anyways... cause i just click on the link.. oh its about saddam, lool

[maxpower]

INSTEAD OF A BOOK I WROTE A SONG

When you're happy and you know it bomb Iraq
If you cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets are a drama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistan is looking shifty,
North Korea is too risky,
Bomb Iraq.

[ojeen1981]

"President Bush said today that when he was told Saddam Hussein had been captured he was up at Camp David reading a book. I don't know what's the bigger shock, capturing Saddam or finding out Bush was reading a book."

Saddam's daughter defended him, saying the U.S. must have drugged or gassed him. Otherwise, he never would have surrendered. Let me tell you something, the guy was living on hot dogs, Spam and Mars bars, and living in a tiny hole. I think he gassed himself."

[ojeen1981]

Have you heard the one about Saddam and Sahhaf on the banks of the Tigris? A man on the other side raises two fingers in a victory sign. "What happened?' asks Saddam. "Did we win the war?" "Don't be stupid,” Sahhaf says. "He means there’s just two of us left."

[missbaghdad]

INSTEAD OF A BOOK I WROTE A SONG

When you're happy and you know it bomb Iraq
If you cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets are a drama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistan is looking shifty,
North Korea is too risky,
Bomb Iraq.

You didn't write that... it's the White House anthem

muhahahaha

and ojeen those jokes are hilarious keep em coming!!!!

[ojeen1981]

lolol * thanks missbaghdad...i didnt write em though..found em on line

max, am not even gonna give u the dignity to respond to your lil poem.

[maxpower]

lolol * thanks missbaghdad...i didnt write em though..found em on line

max, am not even gonna give u the dignity to respond to your lil poem.

:alright: *ask me if i CARE good, *now please adress your comments to the *=; *cause my *:assshaking: *dont care....

[ojeen1981]

well..u *obviously care since u mentioned it!!! and if u dont..thats fine cauze it seems that your a child anyways..so its kool, i understand.

[maxpower]

well..u *obviously care since u mentioned it!!! and if u dont..thats fine cauze it seems that your a child anyways..so its kool, i understand.

:applause: *:applause: *:applause: *:applause: *:applause: