Reports: John Paul Wrote Letter To Gunman?

[Sal Izo]

Reports: John Paul Wrote Letter to Gunman

Tue Jul 5, 9:22 AM ET

VATICAN CITY - * * Pope John Paul II penned an unpublished letter to the Turkish gunman who shot and seriously wounded him in 1981, news reports said Tuesday.

In a letter written shortly after the incident, John Paul asked Mehmet Ali Agca why he tried to take his life given that both men revered the same God, Italian news agency Apcom and Polish daily Rzeczpospolita reported.

"Why did you shoot me, if we both believe in a single God?" Apcom quoted John Paul as writing.

Stanislaw Dziwisz, Pope John Paul II's longtime private secretary, confirmed the letter's existence, Apcom said.

"I confirm that (John Paul) wrote such a letter to Ali Agca, but it was not sent," Apcom quoted Dziwisz as saying.

Rzeczpospolita said John Paul had intended to publish the text as an open letter, but decided instead to meet with Agca personally.

The pope met with Agca in an Italian prison in 1983 and forgave him for the shooting. Agca was extradited to Turkey in 2000 after almost 20 years behind bars in Italy. He is serving a 17-year prison sentence in Istanbul for earlier crimes in Turkey.

Dziwisz said the letter would be sent to clerics presiding over John Paul's beatification process. He added it would be several years before this and other documents were made public.

"The archive is closed to outsiders, and so it shall be until the material is catalogued," Apcom quoted Dziwisz as saying. "This will require a few years and during this time it won't be open to anybody."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050705/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_pope_gunman

[John_5_24]

Wasn't this guy Muslim?

[BONO]

yeah, but I heard that he converted to chritianity later on.

[John_5_24]

OK, but he was Muslim when John Paul wrote the letter right?

[Rita]

Muslims believe in the same God as us Christians.

[John_5_24]

Muslims believe in the same God as us Christians.

Really Rita? *Is Jesus part of the triune God or not? *If you are a Christian, you believe that Christ is God, if you are Muslim, you do not.

Doesn't sound like the same God to me.

Care to elaborate?

[Rita]

Jesus is the son of God.

I think Muslims feel that Jesus was a prophet.

[John_5_24]

Jesus is the son of God.

I think Muslims feel that Jesus was a prophet.

Rita, do you believe that Jesus is God?

[Rita]

No, not really. Jesus is our Christ, our Saviour and our Lord. He is not God. God is his Almighty Father. I worship both God and Jesus though.

[John_5_24]

No, not really. Jesus is our Christ, our Saviour and our Lord. He is not God. God is his Almighty Father. I worship both God and Jesus though.

Interesting Rita. *If you don't believe that Jesus is God, yet you still worship Him, then you are guilty of idolatry and will be in hell with all of the other idolaters. *Don't forget, God is a jealous God.

The above would apply whether you claim to be Christian, Jewish or Muslim.

I am curious as to what religion or denomination you affiliate yourself with.

[UmiSayz]

No, not really. Jesus is our Christ, our Saviour and our Lord. He is not God. God is his Almighty Father. I worship both God and Jesus though.

Interesting Rita. *If you don't believe that Jesus is God, yet you still worship Him, then you are guilty of idolatry and will be in hell with all of the other idolaters. *Don't forget, God is a jealous God.

The above would apply whether you claim to be Christian, Jewish or Muslim.

I am curious as to what religion or denomination you affiliate yourself with.


I dont think its any of your business?

[UmiSayz]

yeah, but I heard that he converted to chritianity later on.

No..hes still a muslim.

[CHALDEANELVIS]

No, not really. Jesus is our Christ, our Saviour and our Lord. He is not God. God is his Almighty Father. I worship both God and Jesus though.

Rita, I just want to give you some heads up. I didn't use to think Jesus was God, although I worshipped Him. I want you to understand that Jesus is in fact God. There is God the Father and *God the Son and the Holy Spirit. I want you to read some passages with me Rita.

John 20:28-29 "Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe." Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, "Peace be with you." Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing." Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Thomas called Jesus his Lord and God.

Mark 2:1-12--Jesus heals a paralytic. He had authority to forgive sins, which is something only God Himself can do. Then, to authenticate His claim, He demonstrated His power by healing the paralytic.

John Verses 28-29 say we will "never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (Here is another strong statement that He is God.)

During Christ's trial, the chief priests asked Him point blank, "Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." And He said,


"I am." (Mark 14:60-62)
"Yes, it is as you say." (Matt. 26: 63-65)
"You are right in saying I am." (Luke 22:67-70)

Turn to John 8:56-58. Jesus is talking to the unbelieving Jews. "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing My day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet 50 years old," they said to Him, "and you have seen Abraham?" "I tell you the truth," Jesus announced, "before Abraham was, I AM!" Jesus was the great I AM from before the beginning of time; He existed before Abraham ever was. He is claiming here to be the I AM of the Old Testament. Verse 59 says the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, but the Lord Jesus slipped away. The reason they wanted to stone Him was because stoning was the death penalty for blasphemy. He was claiming to be Yahweh--Jehovah--Almighty God--I AM. (Of course, it wasn't blasphemy when Christ claimed to be who He truly was!)

Remember Rita, Jesus wasn't born when Mary conceived Him. Jesus was in the world before the foundation of the world. God the Father and God the Son were here in the beginning of times. Read John 1:1-11 for a beautiful description.

Rita, there are many more verses I can give you, but I can only encourage you to rather read the Bible for yourself. Every one who claims to be walking with Christ has to pick up their Bible and read it. God says study the scriptures day and night so that you too can also understand the revelations God has in store for His sheep, that is, the saving message of the Gospel (The Good News)

Also Rita, I won't spend too much time on the Muslim claim but I do have a comment followed with only one verse (for times sake). Anthony imposed a great question. Was Pope John Paul II claiming that the Muslim shooter (while he was still Muslim) worshipped the same God as He? The answer is quite simple. No, Muslims don't worship the same God as us. Observe below:

John 12:44-45 "Whoever believes in Christ, believes in God, and whoever sees Christ, sees God.

This answers both claims that Jesus is God and nobody can come to God unless they go through Jesus.

If you want more information, I posted a topic on the "Religion and Politics forum" It's called "Patriarch Mar Delly Needs Prayer" Read what I wrote and get back to me. You can also email me at cadillacstunah19@aol.com (I made this screename almost 4 years ago, dont laugh! *:D )

God Bless,
Elvis

[Rita]

Follow the 10 Commandments: There is only ONE God! Also, recite your prayers... we don't ever call Jesus God. We pray to God and his Son.

[John_5_24]

Rita, do you consider yourself a Christian?

[Rita]

yes why does that matter 2 u? There are different types of Christianity and I don't need you 2 try and influence me on your teachings and into your cult.

[CHALDEANELVIS]

Follow the 10 Commandments: There is only ONE God! Also, recite your prayers... we don't ever call Jesus God. We pray to God and his Son.

Rita, you are going to have to give me more than just mans sinful philosophy. Can you show me where in the Bible it says that Jesus wasn't God? I demonstrated beautifully that Jesus is God. The trinity is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All work as one, One God. You are going to have to demonstrate to me through scripture Rita. Like John_5_24 said, if you don't hold to this, you can not in any way claim to be a Christian or a follower of Christ. Ask your church, they will verify the information I give you.

John 8:24. "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM, you will indeed die in your sins."

John 18:4. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Judas and some priests and soldiers are about to take Jesus prisoner. "Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to Him, went out and asked them, 'Who is it that you want?' 'Jesus of Nazareth,' they replied. 'I AM,' Jesus said. When He said, 'I AM,' they drew back and fell to the ground."

The force of Jesus' claim to be Yahweh (I AM) was so powerful that it literally knocked the arresting officers and the Jewish priests off their feet!

Mark 2:7 "Who can forgive sins except God alone?"

This is what the pharisees asked and accused Him of blasphemy. They were right, who can forgive sins but God alone? Nobody. This is why Jesus is God.

If God alone can forgive sins, how do you account for all of the sins Christ forgave on earth? He forgave the adulterous woman and many others which I can't quite think off the top of my head. The point is, Only God can forgive sins. Now meditate on what a sin is so that you may appreciate the forgiveness. It is very serious to claim to forgive sins. Sins are what destroy a man and lead him to hell for eternity. For someone to forgive, he would have to be sinless himself and have God attritbutes and authority.

Matthew 9:6 "But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins"

Rita, please elaborate more on what you meant by the 10 Commandments? If this is your claim that Jesus isn't God, your wrong.

By the way, all cults deny Jesus is God, this is why they are sheep gone astray. Jehovas Witnesses, Islam, Mormons, and many others.

Rita, I have to warn you, if you don't believe Jesus is God, you will die in your sins. Remember, God the Father AND God the Son created the world. Look at what John says:

John 1:1-10 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came for testimony, to bear witness to the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness to the light. The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not."

Rita, look at what John says in the first verse. In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and JESUS WAS GOD. How do you explain this? It goes on to say that "He was in te beginning with God and all things were made through Him, without Him, was nothing made!

With Love,
Elvis

[Rita]

Jesus was not with God when he created the world, light, sun, etc. Jesus was not around when God made Adam & Eve. Why is it that you don't think Adam is God also? God is seen in Jesus. This is why we worship him. Jehova's Witnesses don't believe that Jesus was even born yet. They think he has not even been on earth and will come when the world comes to an end. Others simply just don't believe that Jesus was God's son, they think he was his follower or a prophet. I am NOT denying he was God's Son. That is the difference.

[CHALDEANELVIS]

Jesus was not with God when he created the world, light, sun, etc. Jesus was not around when God made Adam & Eve. Why is it that you don't think Adam is God also? God is seen in Jesus. This is why we worship him. Jehova's Witnesses don't believe that Jesus was even born yet. They think he has not even been on earth and will come when the world comes to an end. Others simply just don't believe that Jesus was God's son, they think he was his follower or a prophet. I am NOT denying he was God's Son. That is the difference.

Rita, this is a very dangerous mistake. You MUST go back and read everything I have written. I have given you extreme proof that Jesus is God. Just look again at John 1:1-10, there is no way around it Rita.

Jehova Witness believe that Jesus was Michael the Arch Angel. They deny the resurrection of Christ, they deny the Holy Spirit, they deny the Trinity, and worse of all, they deny that Jesus was God.

Rita, Jesus Himself said He was God. How much more proof can someone show you? Ask you Church.

God Bless,
Elvis

[Rita]

I was actually taught that there is only 1 God and Jesus was his only Son when I took Communion. This is what my parents taught me. I remember specifically thinking that they were the same when I was younger & my mom made me understand the difference. God & Christ/Lord do not mean the same thing.

Also, I've had enough of this. I'm not going back & forth with you. It' obvious you believe one thing and I believe another. CASE CLOSED!!!!!

[CHALDEANELVIS]

Rita, this is totally fine with me. I really enjoyed this conversation we had. I want you to realize that there is nothing man can do to change one's mind. The only advice I offer is to read the Bible for yourself. The Bible says to "Test all things, hold fast to what is true" So it's your duty to test everything someone tells you concerning the Word of God.

Just keep in mind that John_24 and I study the Bible day and and day out. We've been studying it for a while now. The Bible says:

1 Peter 3:15 "Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence"


"There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." -Proverbs 14:12

Your Brother in Christ,
Elvis

[Rita]

Sorry but Peter 3:15 does not say he is God. It says Jesus is the Lord.

BTW, everyone can read & study the Bible but keep in mind that everyone gets a different perception of it when they read it.

[CHALDEANELVIS]

Sorry but Peter 3:15 does not say he is God. It says Jesus is the Lord.

BTW, everyone can read & study the Bible but keep in mind that everyone gets a different perception of it when they read it.

You missed my point with 1 Peter 3:15. I was showing you that it is my job to give a reason to everyone that asks for the faith that lies within. I have already given you every verse that proves Jesus is God.

Yes, everyone can study the Bible and have there own perceptions, but there is only one true perception. I am taking a hermeneutics class right now. It is a class on how to interpret the Bible correctly. Basically, you interpret Bible verses with the usage of other verses. Also, you must take the verse in context and read the chapter, understand to who the writer is writing to and why. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians, he was writing to believers. So we know that it's vital to us as believers.

Rita, I just want to let you know again that I have studied this stuff and went through this many times. If you don't want to take my word for it, thats fine. I just really ask that you do the homework for yourself because it doesn't seem like I can help.

God Bless,
Elvis

[Rita]

No, not really. Jesus is our Christ, our Saviour and our Lord. He is not God. God is his Almighty Father. I worship both God and Jesus though.

Interesting Rita. *If you don't believe that Jesus is God, yet you still worship Him, then you are guilty of idolatry and will be in hell with all of the other idolaters. *Don't forget, God is a jealous God.

The above would apply whether you claim to be Christian, Jewish or Muslim.

I am curious as to what religion or denomination you affiliate yourself with.

ChaldeanElvis wrote:
Rita, I have to warn you, if you don't believe Jesus is God, you will die in your sins. Remember, God the Father AND God the Son created the world. Look at what John says:

Ojeen: This is the post I was referring to!!!! I said Chaldeanelvis & you wrote this but it is John & Elvis. However, as noted earlier... I said I don't know which is which because you all feed the same concept and beliefs. Since you go to Bible study with them and all believe the same thing, I'm sure you feel this way 2. It's dangerous if you don't go word 4 word by your Bible isn't it? Or do you mean 2 tell me that u and them don't get the same message from each Bible passage? You are all united aren't you?

Anyways, moral of the story: this is not true and I won't go to hell.

[John_5_24]

Rita, *
I have actually never met Ojeen. *I met Rudy once for all of about 5 minutes. *Elvis and I do know each other.

It may suprise you to learn that all of use actually disagree on many theological issues, but we stand united in the essentials which is what I wrote to FF about. *I am certainly not promoting taht you have to believe 100% as I do. *I am not that arrogant. *My disagreement with you and Renee are on fundamental Christian doctrine, Catholic or not.

Whether Jesus is in fact God, and whether the Bible is indeed the infallible Word of God, are Christian essentials that are not compramizable.


And by the way, I stand by my statement. *If you do not believe that Jesus is God, you are damned. *If you would like me to tell you how and why, I would be happy to, but it would involve me quoting Scripture, and I know how you hate that.

[Rita]

you are the weakest link... Goodbye!

[John_5_24]

Wow, that was brilliant.

[sammiedebull]

1) If jesus was god, and he died as he was crusified than how can that be? God does not die, God cannot die? is that possible?

2) Anyone can read the bible and understand it in thier own way, there are many different interpetations of the bible and i guareentee no one has figured it all out yet and never will.

3) The bible has been changed in the past, the bible is basically a remake of the torra, if you go back and read the original text it would also provide and say that there is also one God.

Different christains believe different things, what makes you think that you are right, that you see and view it the correct way :)?

I know that some think that there is the holy sprit, gods son and god himself. I guess its how you see it and believe it.

[John_5_24]

1) If jesus was god, and he died as he was crusified than how can that be? God does not die, God cannot die? is that possible?

2) Anyone can read the bible and understand it in thier own way, there are many different interpetations of the bible and i guareentee no one has figured it all out yet and never will.

3) The bible has been changed in the past, the bible is basically a remake of the torra, if you go back and read the original text it would also provide and say that there is also one God.

Different christains believe different things, what makes you think that you are right, that you see and view it the correct way :)?

I know that some think that there is the holy sprit, gods son and god himself. I guess its how you see it and believe it.

1) Jesus died in the sense of his humanity. *You must understand that Jesus is both 100% God and 100% man. *

2) There are many interpretations, but there are a multitude of issues on which things are very clear. *There certianly are still mysteries, but only the Holy Spirit can make things clear (1 Cor 2:14)

3)The Bible has not been changed. *Christians do not hold that the current English versions are free from error, but rather that the original text is free from error. *You don't need to look any further than the Dead Sea Scrolls to see this point.

Different Christians do believe differently. *There are many issues on which I disagree with Elvis, Ojeen, and Rudy, but we are united in the essential undeniable truths are laid out simply for all in the Scriptures. *

Hope that answers your questions, if not, please email or PM me.

[Neo]

so if jesus and god are one who was jesus praying to in the garden of gethsamane on holy thursday????

[sammiedebull]

I just cant see how God would transform himself to come to humans level? why would god let him self die? just to teach everyone a lesson or to have everyone follow him?

If jesus was god than god does not die than how did god allow him/jesus to die :)

just makes no sense.

I believe thier is one god.

[UmiSayz]

God in Christianity Allah in Islaam
Does God Forget

Why do you forget us forever, why do you so long forsake us? [Lam. 5:20]

How long O Lord ? will you forget me forever. [Psalm 13:1]

(The angels say "We descend not but by command of thy Lord: to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between and thy Lord never doth forget" [Al_Quraan 019:064]

Does God Sleep

Awake, why do you sleep, O Lord? [Psalm. 4:23]

Then the Lord awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that
shouts by reason of wine. [Psalm. 4:23]

Allah! There is no God but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and
preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory). [Al_Quraan 002:255]

Can anyone in this life see God face to face?

Jacob wrestled God who said to him, "Let me go; for the day is breaking" But Jacob said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me. And he said to him,” What is your name? And he said "Jacob" Then the Lord said, "Your name shall be no more called Jacob but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed. Then Jacob asked him, "Tell me, I pray your name. But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name? And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the name of he place "Pen'el" saying: For I have seen God face to face." [Gen. 32:22]

No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things. [Al_Quraan 006:103]

When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon
thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the
first to believe." [Al_Quraan 007:143]

Does God need to be refreshed or rest?

For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. [Exo. 31:17]

We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Long Periods, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us. [Al_Quraan 050:038]

Does God Knows everything happening?

And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where are thou? [Gen. 3:8,9]

With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read). [Al_Quraan 006:059]

Does God regret?

And the Lord was sorry that he made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. [he said]: "For I am sorry that I have made them." [Gen 6:6,7]

The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all. [Al_Quraan 6:115]

But no change wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing): no turning off wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing). [Al_Quraan 35:43]

Does God order people to commit sins ?


When the Lord first spoke to Hose'a he said to him, "GO TAKE TO YOURSELF A WIFE OF HARLOTRY and have children of harlotry, for the land has committed great harlotry by forsaking the Lord." [Hos. 1:2]

God said to the children of Israel, "Every woman shall BORROW of her neighbour jewels of silver and gold, and remaint, and you shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters and you shall spoil the Egyptians. [Exo. 3:22]

So they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels and remaint: And the Lord gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent them such things as they required. And they spoiled the Egyptians. [Exo.12:35]

When they do aught that is shameful, they say: "We found our fathers doing so"; and "Allah commanded us thus": Say: "Nay, Allah never commands what is shameful: do ye say of Allah what ye know not?" [Al_Quraan 7:28]

Say: "Nay, Allah never commands what is indecent: Do you say of Allah what you know not? " [Al_Quraan 7:28]

Is it Justice to accuse the children of their fathers' sins ?

I am the Lord, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations. [Deut. 5:7]

Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers. [Isiah 14:21]

And the Lord said, "Go through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have you pity. Slay utterly old and young both maids and little children, and woman. [Ezek. 9:5]

Every soul draws the meed of its acts on none but itself: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. [Al_Quraan 6:164]



Sorry I had to...;)

[rudy]

God in Christianity Allah in Islaam
Does God Forget

Why do you forget us forever, why do you so long forsake us? [Lam. 5:20]

How long O Lord ? will you forget me forever. [Psalm 13:1]

(The angels say "We descend not but by command of thy Lord: to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between and thy Lord never doth forget" [Al_Quraan 019:064]

Does God Sleep

Awake, why do you sleep, O Lord? [Psalm. 4:23]

Then the Lord awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that
shouts by reason of wine. [Psalm. 4:23]

Allah! There is no God but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and
preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory). [Al_Quraan 002:255]

Can anyone in this life see God face to face?

Jacob wrestled God who said to him, "Let me go; for the day is breaking" But Jacob said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me. And he said to him,” What is your name? And he said "Jacob" Then the Lord said, "Your name shall be no more called Jacob but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed. Then Jacob asked him, "Tell me, I pray your name. But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name? And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the name of he place "Pen'el" saying: For I have seen God face to face." [Gen. 32:22]

No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things. [Al_Quraan 006:103]

When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon
thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the
first to believe." [Al_Quraan 007:143]

Does God need to be refreshed or rest?

For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. [Exo. 31:17]

We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Long Periods, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us. [Al_Quraan 050:038]

Does God Knows everything happening?

And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where are thou? [Gen. 3:8,9]

With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read). [Al_Quraan 006:059]

Does God regret?

And the Lord was sorry that he made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. [he said]: "For I am sorry that I have made them." [Gen 6:6,7]

The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all. [Al_Quraan 6:115]

But no change wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing): no turning off wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing). [Al_Quraan 35:43]

Does God order people to commit sins ?


When the Lord first spoke to Hose'a he said to him, "GO TAKE TO YOURSELF A WIFE OF HARLOTRY and have children of harlotry, for the land has committed great harlotry by forsaking the Lord." [Hos. 1:2]

God said to the children of Israel, "Every woman shall BORROW of her neighbour jewels of silver and gold, and remaint, and you shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters and you shall spoil the Egyptians. [Exo. 3:22]

So they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels and remaint: And the Lord gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent them such things as they required. And they spoiled the Egyptians. [Exo.12:35]

When they do aught that is shameful, they say: "We found our fathers doing so"; and "Allah commanded us thus": Say: "Nay, Allah never commands what is shameful: do ye say of Allah what ye know not?" [Al_Quraan 7:28]

Say: "Nay, Allah never commands what is indecent: Do you say of Allah what you know not? " [Al_Quraan 7:28]

Is it Justice to accuse the children of their fathers' sins ?

I am the Lord, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations. [Deut. 5:7]

Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers. [Isiah 14:21]

And the Lord said, "Go through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have you pity. Slay utterly old and young both maids and little children, and woman. [Ezek. 9:5]

Every soul draws the meed of its acts on none but itself: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. [Al_Quraan 6:164]



Sorry I had to...;)Everything you posted umi is so easily answerable. But I will challenge you to do something. Why don’t you try to read the whole chapter and not just pick and go on bible verse and try to make sense? *The Bible use a lot of symbolic phrases and you are taking most of those phrases literally. For example Jesus is called the Lamb of God. If I was to use this verse the way you are using Bible verses than it would make Jesus a sheep. But we know it is speaking symbolically referring to Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice. Now I would love to take all those verse you posted and give you an explanation but I have a feeling if I was to do such a thing there will be those who start personal attacks (as usual). But I will challenge you to do this give me one at a time and I would love to try to answer them for you if you don’t want to post them here just send it in pm. Thank you and God Bless.

[ojeen1981]

I just cant see how God would transform himself to come to humans level? why would god let him self die? just to teach everyone a lesson or to have everyone follow him?

If jesus was god than god does not die than how did god allow him/jesus to die :)

just makes no sense.

I believe thier is one god.


good questions. *

i will try to answer your question from a philosophical lens. *to me, the christian faith is truly from God becuase it transcends human logic. *this tellls us that this God's logical capacity surpasses all human reason.

now, not to attempt to answer your questions, but i would like to put my own refelction on them, infulenced by Biblical scripture of course. *

God exists in 3 forms that are all one. *We see this in Genesis, and through out the old testment. *Allow me to give a example, water can be gas, liquid or soild form, all are H2O.

[John_5_24]

so if jesus and god are one who was jesus praying to in the garden of gethsamane on holy thursday????

God the Father.

God exists eternally in three persons. *The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

[sammiedebull]

How can God die :) i dont buy it that jesus is god, sorry. He is a prophet.

[UmiSayz]

Rudy- Whats so hard to understand the quotes on the bible? Its easily readable and understandable.

[John_5_24]

Umi,

Rudy is trying to tell you that you can't read the one verse out of context. *Anyone can prooftext anything and make it say whatever it wants.

For example, your statement "Does God Know Everything" when the verse you give clearly is just telling the story of Adam and Eve. *There are probably two or three dozen verses that say that God does indeed know everything.

"Does God Sleep" - These verses didn't say that God was asleep, but rather from the prospective of the people it seemed as though he was asleep.

Additionally, I am rather suprised taht you would use Old Testament verses since your own Qu'ran speaks very highly of the OT and the Bible as a whole.

[rudy]

How can God die :) i dont buy it that jesus is god, sorry. He is a prophet.I don’t believe you understand the whole concept of why Jesus was born why he died and rose again. Is Jesus God? Yes. Can God die? NO. Did Jesus die? Yes but he also rose from the dead proving he can overcome death! He was born to die to pay a price. GO AHEAD ASK ME MORE QUESTIONS I READY TO ANSWER ANY. THANK YOU AND GOD BLESS.

[sammiedebull]

mike jones/neo asked a question in this thread, answer it.

[John_5_24]

so if jesus and god are one who was jesus praying to in the garden of gethsamane on holy thursday????

Jesus is praying to God the Father. *To understand this, you must understand the difference between nature and position. *Jesus in his very nature is equal to the Father, hence "I and the Father are One". *But in position, we see time and again that he Father is ahead of the Son. *Each Person of the Godhead has a different position and a different role, but they are still all equal in nature.

For example, take myself and President Bush. *We are equal in nature, in that we are both human, yet he is greater than me in position because he is the President.

It's a crude analogy, but about as good as I can think of.

[John_5_24]

I don't see a question by anyone named "neo".

[sammiedebull]

neo = mike jones :)

so you are saying God is Praying to God :)

why would God pray to himself?

does not make sense.

Is he doing this to show the people what they should do, how it is done or?

[Samuel]

I love it how all of these "Catholic" kids are denying that Jesus is God. *How little do you know about "your" beliefs, kids? *
*
I realize that these beliefs were really shoved down your throats ever since you received your first communion. *But don't walk around demonstrating your religious facade by speaking nonsense. *
*
To deny Jesus as God, is essentially to deny the foundation of Catholicism. * *
*
*
Like my father always says. *Most Catholics don't know a damn thing about their religion, because "wiser" clerics interpret the bible for them, as opposed to Protestant sects who allow their congregation to think on their own. * The funny thing about the catholic church is... IF you're not going to let us interpret the liturgy, then for the LOVE OF GOD. *EXPLAIN IT TO US. *I've went to mass for 19 years. *You could say that i was "religious," and God fearing at that point. *But every sunday... the routine was the same. *We'd read nonsensical balderdash in the old testament as the first and second readings. *Then read from the gospel. *And then it came time for the Father's homily. *In which he would talk about NOTHING!. *Oh so you tell me to love my neighbors as I love myself? *hmm Interesting. *Never heard that one before. *Oh we need more priests? *Good point. *Oh the Africans Are starving, so the church needs money? *Thanks a lot Captain obvious. *

BUT WHEN ARE YOU PLANNING ON EXPLAINING THE RANDOMNESS WE JUST READ IN THE FIRST READING. * *Or is it that you can't? *Because it was ridiculous? *Yea, that's what I f-in thought.

Why don't your priests talk about the bible for once instead of begging for money all of the time? *Maybe that would make some sense out of that "holy" bible. *They're always anxious to regurgitate the gospel for us. *But who needs that? *The gospel is easy as cake to understand. *Why don't these people understand that the old testament makes no sense?!?! *

/rant on catholicism

[Samuel]

neo = mike jones :)

so you are saying God is Praying to God :)

why would God pray to himself?

does not make sense.

Is he doing this to show the people what they should do, how it is done or?


maybe the praying was a form of meditation and self-reflection? *More people in the world need to do that. *Take five seconds out of their lives to consider how retarded they were during the course of that day.

[ojeen1981]

The Father, Son and holy spirit. *"father father, why have u forsaken me", were the last words that Jesus uttered to God the Father. *

it is difficult perhaps to understand the phenomina of this. *this is why i am a christian, becuase it shows the Biblical scripture surpasses my logic as a human, and hence it must have been created a higher being whose logical capacity out-weights mine transcdently. *

having said that, Jesus and the father are one. *The reason why Jesus prayed to God at his last hours were becuase he knew that their was gonna come this point where him and the father will be seprated. *allow me to explain. *When Jesus was saying his last words, the reason why he sait them was becuase God the father turned away from his own beloved son becuase Jesus was carring the burden of the world on his shoulders. *and in God's holy nature, he can not coexist with sin face to face. *and thus, God truns away from Christ as he barries the sins of the words shouting to his father, "why have u forsakenme". *

through-out his last prayers, Christ said that it shall be the will of the father and not his that should be carried out. *this shows his devotion to carry out the will of God, soemthing myself and everyone should do our best to follow. *thanks

[John_5_24]

it is difficult perhaps to understand the phenomina of this. *this is why i am a christian, becuase it shows the Biblical scripture surpasses my logic as a human, and hence it must have been created a higher being whose logical capacity out-weights mine transcdently. *


Ojeen, I know that this part of your posting came out wrong. *Please explain why you are a Christian. *I know it's more than just because it defies man's logic. *Simply because something surpasses logic does not make it divine. *

I am not doubting your faith, just asking for a rephrasing here for the benefit of the forum.

[ojeen1981]

it is difficult perhaps to understand the phenomina of this. *this is why i am a christian, becuase it shows the Biblical scripture surpasses my logic as a human, and hence it must have been created a higher being whose logical capacity out-weights mine transcdently. *


Ojeen, I know that this part of your posting came out wrong. *Please explain why you are a Christian. *I know it's more than just because it defies man's logic. *Simply because something surpasses logic does not make it divine. *

I am not doubting your faith, just asking for a rephrasing here for the benefit of the forum.

their are many other reasons why I follow Christ. *but back when i became a skeptic about everything in life and i questioned religions...one of the things i saw was that the Bible surpasses our logic.

[sammiedebull]

I do not think God will bring himself to mans level so that is why i cant believe that jesus is also God. Also as mike jones said, why would God pray to himself? I know these are extremly hard questions but they need to "logically" be verified for you to make make your claim "true".

[ojeen1981]

No, not really. Jesus is our Christ, our Saviour and our Lord. He is not God. God is his Almighty Father. I worship both God and Jesus though.

Interesting Rita. *If you don't believe that Jesus is God, yet you still worship Him, then you are guilty of idolatry and will be in hell with all of the other idolaters. *Don't forget, God is a jealous God.

The above would apply whether you claim to be Christian, Jewish or Muslim.

I am curious as to what religion or denomination you affiliate yourself with.

ChaldeanElvis wrote:
Rita, I have to warn you, if you don't believe Jesus is God, you will die in your sins. Remember, God the Father AND God the Son created the world. Look at what John says:

Ojeen: This is the post I was referring to!!!! I said Chaldeanelvis & you wrote this but it is John & Elvis. However, as noted earlier... I said I don't know which is which because you all feed the same concept and beliefs. Since you go to Bible study with them and all believe the same thing, I'm sure you feel this way 2. It's dangerous if you don't go word 4 word by your Bible isn't it? Or do you mean 2 tell me that u and them don't get the same message from each Bible passage? You are all united aren't you?

Anyways, moral of the story: this is not true and I won't go to hell.

Rita, u can think what ever *u want about me. *I tried reasoning with u but u just wanna label me without having any ideas about my beliefs, what studies ive done etc. *but that’s kool…I know I respect everyone’s views and I know its an insult to disregard people’s distinct ideas from others, its insulting years of studies of ideas and thoughts. and people like u just come and label me…anyways..who cares..i really don’t care no more as long as u don’t label me among others, I don’t care who. *If I said something myself and u feel its wrong, id be more than happy for u and anyone else in this site to critique it, that’s how I learn..peace

[sammiedebull]

you are very intellegent, the problem is when you see someone believes something different than you do, youexpect them to prove thier view right or yours wrong, religion is very complex and discussing it on a discussion board by posting back and forth will not convience anyone one way or the other.

[ojeen1981]

sammie, on the contrary, i dont expect that from anyone...i want to learn your belifs...thats all

[ojeen1981]

thanks for the kind words sammie and i apologize if i offended u in any way in the past. *like i said, i dont expect anyone to prove me wrong or prove their view wrong. *I like engaging in philosophical talks, thats how we learn from each other and get to know each other's ideas better.

[UmiSayz]

i want to learn your belifs...thats all


Why dont you try living as a muslim for a month? ;)

[ojeen1981]

i want to learn your belifs...thats all


Why dont you try living as a muslim for a month? ;)

lol. *ive studied islam..living it is simply not something i agree with. *its something i respect...on the "intellectual level"

[John_5_24]

Ojeen,
Why do you respect ideas you believe to be false? *I know its the PC thing to say.

I certainly believe that faith is a gift from God and therefore tolerate other viewpoints, but I certainly don't respect them.

[John_5_24]

I do not think God will bring himself to mans level so that is why i cant believe that jesus is also God. Also as mike jones said, why would God pray to himself? I know these are extremly hard questions but they need to "logically" be verified for you to make make your claim "true".

Sammie, I fully realize that these things are hard to understand. *I also don't try to confine God to the "logical" boundaries that we would have Him fit in. *My lack of ability to prove God "logically" does not diminish from the Truth. *If you want to see the Truth, read the Bible and study the eyewitness accounts of Jesus that are there.

[sammiedebull]

The problem is that most people obviously cant comprehend it, actually everyone cant, as we discussed before, you cant prove God, you have believes and faith in your religion.

[Rita]

Ojeen,
Why do you respect ideas you believe to be false? *I know its the PC thing to say.

I certainly believe that faith is a gift from God and therefore tolerate other viewpoints, but I certainly don't respect them.

You respect the person and the fact that they have a different views & religion, just as you would like them 2 respect yours.

[ojeen1981]

on the intellectual level, just like how i respect Plato's Repiblic. *it does not mean i agree with it, which i dont.

[ojeen1981]

Ojeen,
Why do you respect ideas you believe to be false? *I know its the PC thing to say.

I certainly believe that faith is a gift from God and therefore tolerate other viewpoints, but I certainly don't respect them.

You respect the person and the fact that they have a different views & religion, just as you would like them 2 respect yours.

thats what ive been asking from u

[ojeen1981]

Jesus told his followers that u will be persectuted in his name. *I feel like every time i bring up christ or defend the word of God from someone who said something wrong about Jesus that does not apply to him, people begin to label names and say its politicaly incorrect and so on. *

to me, it shows that am a true follower when people put me down for the sake of christ.

[Rita]

Ojeen,
Why do you respect ideas you believe to be false? *I know its the PC thing to say.

I certainly believe that faith is a gift from God and therefore tolerate other viewpoints, but I certainly don't respect them.

You respect the person and the fact that they have a different views & religion, just as you would like them 2 respect yours.

thats what ive been asking from u

I've never disrespected you. *:roll: *Maybe you shouldn't be soooooooooo sensitive.

[ojeen1981]

yea u have,...u keep labeling me... would u like me to label u under names and say that your thoughts are exactly as some other people in this site??? i dont think ud appreciate that

[Rita]

do whatever u want. i don't care. all it takes is 4 me 2 say, No i'm not and explain y :roll:

[ojeen1981]

sweeet.this showed u dont have integrity and dignity for yourself to see that u are wrong about something and further, that you dont have respect for who u are to apologize for people.......thats fine..as long as u dont mention my name in anything u say...ill leave u alone..peace

[sammiedebull]

she already gave her view and belief, i do not think she should explain and prove why she wants it that way, religion is personal!

[Rita]

LOL,its ok. He must need something in his life 2 keep him going.

[sammiedebull]

no idea man, some people just dont let up.