Chaldeans and divorce

[renee]

Since according to the church only 15% of Chaldean marriages end in divorce (I wonder where they get that stat but I'll accept it bc the Church would never lie to us) while the general US population is around 50%. I accept that culture, religion, and community have a lot to do with that statistic, but given the rates are so much higher in the general population, it means that either Chaldeans are

1) so much better at picking out spouses than other Americans or
2) just staying in unhappy marriages so not to divorce.

I'm thinking its number 2 but I know that lots of the people here will say its number 1. So if you think its number 1, what makes Chaldeans so much better at picking spouses than the rest of the world? Why doesn't someone write a book?

[Snowflake]

Actually, aren't Chaldeans overall a small population? So 15% of all divorces are Chaldean - that number in comparison actually seems rather high.

[SamIAM™]

Originally Posted by renee

Since according to the church only 15% of Chaldean marriages end in divorce (I wonder where they get that stat but I'll accept it bc the Church would never lie to us) while the general US population is around 50%. I accept that culture, religion, and community have a lot to do with that statistic, but given the rates are so much higher in the general population, it means that either Chaldeans are

1) so much better at picking out spouses than other Americans or
2) just staying in unhappy marriages so not to divorce.

I'm thinking its number 2 but I know that lots of the people here will say its number 1. So if you think its number 1, what makes Chaldeans so much better at picking spouses than the rest of the world? Why doesn't someone write a book?

lol i knew you were gonna say/bring up #2. whats you're prof of that?

my prof of #1: my parents, their parents, my uncles, their spouses parents/grandparents, etc..

Chaldeans are not the only ones with low divorce rate:
Greece: %16
Italy: %10
Japan: 2% WTF
Polan: 17%
Spain: 15%
source: http://www.divorcereform.org/gul.html

Just some of the countries I looked up,maybe you're correct they all need to educate the American public with books.
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Originally Posted by Future Sister-in-law

Actually, aren't Chaldeans overall a small population? So 15% of all divorces are Chaldean - that number in comparison actually seems rather high.

15% of the Chaldean population not the US population.

[Snowflake]

Originally Posted by SamIAM™

lol i knew you were gonna say/bring up #2. whats you're prof of that?

my prof of #1: my parents, their parents, my uncles, their spouses parents/grandparents, etc..

Chaldeans are not the only ones with low divorce rate:
Greece: %16
Italy: %10
Japan: 2% WTF
Polan: 17%
Spain: 15%
source: http://www.divorcereform.org/gul.html

Just some of the countries I looked up,maybe you're correct they all need to educate the American public with books.

So, is the 15% for those Chaldeans only in the US since these statistics aren't based on nationalities in the U.S. but rather an entire country as a whole?

Here's the non-chaldean-all-american-girl take on it: role models. Many Americans, IMO, lack a valuable role model - a person that teaches them morals, consequences for their actions, the pleasure of reaping the benefits of hard work, etc. We are a country of instant gratification - we believe if it feels good, why not? There isn't anyone telling us not to (when I say us, I mean Americans). As well, it isn't much of a social taboo as it used to be. It's socially accepted here. It's socially accepted, because our value system has gone to shit. In your culture, you have a tighter-knit group of people with expectations from you. That is to be admired, although I'm sure it has it's drawbacks.

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by renee

Since according to the church only 15% of Chaldean marriages end in divorce (I wonder where they get that stat but I'll accept it bc the Church would never lie to us) while the general US population is around 50%. I accept that culture, religion, and community have a lot to do with that statistic, but given the rates are so much higher in the general population, it means that either Chaldeans are

1) so much better at picking out spouses than other Americans or
2) just staying in unhappy marriages so not to divorce.

I'm thinking its number 2 but I know that lots of the people here will say its number 1. So if you think its number 1, what makes Chaldeans so much better at picking spouses than the rest of the world? Why doesn't someone write a book?

Where the **** did you get that number from? The church has never...ever...declared an official divorce rate within the Chaldean community. I just did an article on the topic for Chaldean News and interviewed the priest who handles our anulments; not to mention the fact that I'm in constant discussion with the other priests about the topic. Again, tell me where the **** you pulled this stat out of?

[renee]

Originally Posted by LOTR1116

Where the **** did you get that number from? The church has never...ever...declared an official divorce rate within the Chaldean community. I just did an article on the topic for Chaldean News and interviewed the priest who handles our anulments; not to mention the fact that I'm in constant discussion with the other priests about the topic. Again, tell me where the **** you pulled this stat out of?

I got it from Sam. So tell me what the number really is if you have a better one. Is it higher or lower? (And I'm not talking about Church annulments. I'm talking about that PLUS legal divorces).

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by renee

I got it from Sam. So tell me what the number really is if you have a better one. Is it higher or lower? (And I'm not talking about Church annulments. I'm talking about that PLUS legal divorces).

There's no clear-cut number, because some people who are getting divorced aren't filing for anulments. Hence, there's no way for the church to gather an accurate amount of how many people are actually getting divorced. They don't go out and take count of all the state divorces. It could be 15 percent, or it could be 30 percent. They do acknowledge that, along with the rest of the American society, it is rising. So, whatever reasons you or anyone else might think of that are causing divorce for the rest of America are most likely applicable to Chaldeans also.

[BONO]

OR

3. Couple work things out rather than just filing for divorce. ( I bet you never thought about that did u renee?)

[renee]

Originally Posted by LOTR1116

There's no clear-cut number, because some people who are getting divorced aren't filing for anulments. Hence, there's no way for the church to gather an accurate amount of how many people are actually getting divorced. They don't go out and take count of all the state divorces. It could be 15 percent, or it could be 30 percent. They do acknowledge that, along with the rest of the American society, it is rising. So, whatever reasons you or anyone else might think of that are causing divorce for the rest of America are most likely applicable to Chaldeans also.

This is what I would expect. I expect it will become just like society in general. But I'm still open to my option 1, DO CHALDEANS MAKE BETTER CHOICES? And if so, WHY?
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Originally Posted by BONO

OR

3. Couple work things out rather than just filing for divorce. ( I bet you never thought about that did u renee?)

I did think of this and put it under number 1. I'm not saying Chaldeans never argue, but if we can ALWAYS or MOSTLY ALWAYS work it out, then we ARE better then society in general.

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by renee

This is what I would expect. I expect it will become just like society in general. But I'm still open to my option 1, DO CHALDEANS MAKE BETTER CHOICES? And if so, WHY?

Their choices are as good or as bad as anyone else's. Their choices could be influenced by differing factors than other communities or society in general. To ask if their choices are "better" is a bit vague though. If you want some info to construct some more detailed reflections; here goes. A few things that tend to interfere with and cause chaos in alot of Chaldean marriages are materialism, status, and self-centeredness. First and foremost, I would say that alot of people are more concerned with how much they can get out of a relationship/marriage far more than how much they intend to give. Second, women are heavily encouraged (and no this is not a chauvinistic observation,) to seek someone who makes alot of money, (and not for security purposes either.) One story that I always refer to and which sticks out in my mind was told to me by one of the priests. This priest was visiting a relative, and they fell to talking about marriage. The relative began giving the priest a list of the characteristics the guy who would marry his daughter would possess. They were all based on materialism and status. When the priest asked "where is love on your list?" The man replied "save your preaching for Sundays."
There are, I'm sure, more reasons we'll come up with, but that's a start for you.

[BONO]

Originally Posted by renee

This is what I would expect. I expect it will become just like society in general. But I'm still open to my option 1, DO CHALDEANS MAKE BETTER CHOICES? And if so, WHY?
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I did think of this and put it under number 1. I'm not saying Chaldeans never argue, but if we can ALWAYS or MOSTLY ALWAYS work it out, then we ARE better then society in general.

Or we, chaldeans, work harder in ensuring that their mairrage is successfull, but in your case, Chaldeans are not better, so you chose option 2.

If u want my personal opinion, by you choosing option 2, tells me how much YOU DON'T KNOW about our Chaldean culture and how far we've come along and how YOU don't want to change your preception and thinking..

I'm kinda dissapointed that an intelligent person that you claim you are resists to change her perception!!!!!

[SamIAM™]

Renee you refuse to give credit to our culture for having a low divorce rate.
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Omar,

At t he marriage classes that question was asked, and it was answered that it used to be 10% and was rising, and its up to 15 percent. Its an estimate just as the 50% for the US population.

[renee]

I'm not resistant to change. But here's what my observations are:

1) People are people and there is not that much difference between people of different nationalities;

2) There is a lot of difference between people when it comes to cultures and the expectations that are placed on people when it comes to cultures and community;

3) When it comes to sex and love, people around the world are pretty much the same;

4) When it comes to personal realationships, if you remove the oversight of community and culture people are pretty much the same.

5) Marriages fall into two categories: happy and unhappy.


So, if my observation that people are pretty much the same when it comes to sex, love, and relationships is correct, then the number of Chaldeans in unhappy marriages should equal that of all other groups. So why is the divorce rate lower?

The difference amounts to the social/societal pressure that is put on people. In a western/modern society, there is very little pressure put on unhappily married couples to stay married. So there are fewer unhappy marriages because they get divorced.

In a traditional/religous society, like the Chaldean, there is a lot of pressure put on couples to stay married whether they are unhappy or not. So there are fewer divorces but more unhappy marriages because they do not get divorced.

The question is what is better? Is it better to stay married when you are unhappily married or is it better to get divorced when you are unhappily married.

A socialogist might draw the conclusion that in Chaldean society, it is better to stay unhappily married than to get a divorce. To a psychologist that is sad. People should be happy.

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by SamIAM™

Renee you refuse to give credit to our culture for having a low divorce rate.
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Omar,

At t he marriage classes that question was asked, and it was answered that it used to be 10% and was rising, and its up to 15 percent. Its an estimate just as the 50% for the US population.

A couple years back, I heard that it was 30 percent. So yes I agree with you that it's an estimate. My point in disputing her original statement was because she made it sound as if the church is trying to cover up the fact that divorce is rising, and that they want to make things sound "better" than they actually are. That is not the case.

[renee]

Originally Posted by SamIAM™

Renee you refuse to give credit to our culture for having a low divorce rate.
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.

Sam, I WILL give credit to Chaldeans for having a divorce rate IF you can convince me that Chaldeans have happier marriages than the general US population. (THAT IS MY NUMBER 1).

DO CHALDEANS HAVE HAPPIER MARRIAGES? IF WE DO, WHY? I WANT TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT IT AND SAVE THE WORLD'S MARRIAGES.

(But you can't say that we just stay in marriages because we value marriage, because if you do, you are acknowledging that we stay married even if we are unhappy.)
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Originally Posted by LOTR1116

My point in disputing her original statement was because she made it sound as if the church is trying to cover up the fact that divorce is rising, and that they want to make things sound "better" than they actually are. That is not the case.

ERUB!!! I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm quoting Sam who quoted the Church. Personally, I think its higher. 3 of my cousins are divorced and that's like out of 12 of us old enough to be married long enough to be divorced.

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by renee

Sam, I WILL give credit to Chaldeans for having a divorce rate IF you can convince me that Chaldeans have happier marriages than the general US population. (THAT IS MY NUMBER 1).

DO CHALDEANS HAVE HAPPIER MARRIAGES? IF WE DO, WHY? I WANT TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT IT AND SAVE THE WORLD'S MARRIAGES.

(But you can't say that we just stay in marriages because we value marriage, because if you do, you are acknowledging that we stay married even if we are unhappy.)
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ERUB!!! I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm quoting Sam who quoted the Church. Personally, I think its higher. 3 of my cousins are divorced and that's like out of 12 of us old enough to be married long enough to be divorced.

lol at Erub. To answer your first question, Chaldeans have neither better nor worse marriages than the rest of the world. Simple as that. The fact that divorce within the community is conforming to the rest of society is proof of that.

[renee]

Originally Posted by LOTR1116

lol at Erub. To answer your first question, Chaldeans have neither better nor worse marriages than the rest of the world. Simple as that. The fact that divorce within the community is conforming to the rest of society is proof of that.

Okay, I accept that and it makes a lot of sense from a sociological and psychological point of view. BUT many (or most) in our culture will deny that. Just a few posts up Sam and Bono deny it. So who's wrong, us or them?

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by renee

Okay, I accept that and it makes a lot of sense from a sociological and psychological point of view. BUT many (or most) in our culture will deny that. Just a few posts up Sam and Bono deny it. So who's wrong, us or them?

There's nothing to deny. Again, the proof is in the fact that divorce is rising, and for the record: one of the chief priests involved in the marriage planning feels it's going to continue rising.

[BONO]

Originally Posted by renee

Okay, I accept that and it makes a lot of sense from a sociological and psychological point of view. BUT many (or most) in our culture will deny that. Just a few posts up Sam and Bono deny it. So who's wrong, us or them?

u need to understand what I'm typing here renee. U seem to hear an listen to what u want to hear and listen. Where did I mention that chaldean divorce is not on the rise? All I said was that missed the fact that u don't understand our culture as much as we do and u resist from changing your mind about it...

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by BONO

u need to understand what I'm typing here renee. U seem to hear an listen to what u want to hear and listen. Where did I mention that chaldean divorce is not on the rise? All I said was that missed the fact that u don't understand our culture as much as we do and u resist from changing your mind about it...

I agree.

[SamIAM™]

Originally Posted by LOTR1116

lol at Erub. To answer your first question, Chaldeans have neither better nor worse marriages than the rest of the world. Simple as that. The fact that divorce within the community is conforming to the rest of society is proof of that.

omar, 30% means almost 1 in every 3 marriages resulted in a divorce, 15% 1 in 6...... In your experience with the Chaldean community which do you think is a closer representation?

I completely disagree with your statement above. I put some statistics in this thread about some of the other countries in the world that had a lot lower percentage than the US.

We're not comparing Chaldean to the rest of world, we're comparing Chaldean to the general American public, in which a they say there is a 50% divorce rate.

Even Renee did not argue about the percentage being lower, she is just think its because most are forced to live with their marriage even if its a bad marriage.

[Emma_Girl]

Unfortunately, people make the decision to get married young or really early on in the relationship; too early for them to truly know if the person is meant for them. I've seem a lot of people within our cultures that are not happy with their partners. Some stay because of money, reputation, family disappointment, pride, etc.

[Rita]

Well I must say that our divorce rates used to be low but within the last few years, the rates are climbing at a rapid rate. There is no way we can hide from this or shove it aside. It needs to be brought to light so that future marriages do not follow the same path. A good step the church implemented a while back was marriage counseling. And even during its initial phase, the counseling was a joke. Only lately has the church been more strict with the counseling process and I applaud that improvement.

Anyway, once couples started divorcing in the general population and then into our community, we saw many couples filing for divorce. Couples that had been married for decades and others who had barely made it to their 1st or 2nd anniversary. Divorce became something that wasn't so taboo anymore because many families were experiencing someone from their own family with this situation. And many others weren't so afraid of the gossip that would follow because they knew those people around them couldn't talk since a close member of their family had divorced as well. So many people who weren't happy in their relationship called it quits. And many others called it quits for the dumbest reasons. It was so easy to divorce that that became their 1st option rather than going to couple's counseling. It's sad but true.

But I have to say that there are also so many couples out there who are still married, not because they are happy together... but because the marriage is still ongoing either cuz the wife is so dependent on the husband and is afraid that she wouldn't be able to make it on her own, or the husband is so dependent on his wife because he can't bear the thought of cooking, cleaning, and taking care of the kids on his own. And this only led them to one choice... and that was to stay married for the sake of making life easier.

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by SamIAM™

omar, 30% means almost 1 in every 3 marriages resulted in a divorce, 15% 1 in 6...... In your experience with the Chaldean community which do you think is a closer representation?

I completely disagree with your statement above. I put some statistics in this thread about some of the other countries in the world that had a lot lower percentage than the US.

We're not comparing Chaldean to the rest of world, we're comparing Chaldean to the general American public, in which a they say there is a 50% divorce rate.

Even Renee did not argue about the percentage being lower, she is just think its because most are forced to live with their marriage even if its a bad marriage.

Sam, I never stated the 30 percent as fact. My argument was that we have no way of accurately determining what the divorce rate is within the community. You said "We're not comparing Chaldean to the rest of world, we're comparing Chaldean to the general American public, in which a they say there is a 50% divorce rate." I'm not sure what you were trying to get across with that, but I was also keeping my comparison between Chaldos and the rest of American society. My point has been that we as a community here in the states are conforming to our environment as far as divorce is concerned. Proof = its rise amongst our people.

[renee]

Okay, so let's take an early re-cap here. Emma and Rita both are feeling that Chaldean-American people are still more likely to stay in an unhappy marriage rather than divorce than the typical American couple. Although both observe that it is on the rise.

Omar believes that its on the rise but doesn't opine on the reasons.

Sam and Bono want to hold onto what I'm going to call the Chaldean myth.
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Sam, regarding divorce in Poland, Spain, and Italy, all three of those countries until very recently either did not allow divorce or it was very difficult to get. You'll find if you google "spain divorce rates" that since 2005 when the divorce laws were liberallized the divorce rates are soaring.

Also something to consider about western europe, people don't get married as often. They just seem to live together. You can find references to that by googling "marriage rates europe"